Change Makers: Laurence Kemball-Cook, Pavegen CEO

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Sam Humphreys:

Hello, you're listening to Energy Cents, an S&P Global Commodity Insight podcast, where we discuss all things on the intersection of energy and finance. My name is Sam Humphreys. And I'm here, as ever, with Hill Vaden. How's it going, Hill?

Hill Vaden:

It's going well, Sam, how are you today?

Sam Humphreys:

Not too bad, thank you. I've changed office locations in the house. So I've moved my Lego.

Hill Vaden:

You have

Sam Humphreys:

And it's survived.

Hill Vaden:

Yes. You've moved your Lego, you've still got the Harry Potter community behind you...

Sam Humphreys:

I do.

Hill Vaden:

... supporting you.

Sam Humphreys:

It's still going. And linking to that, this is one of our Changemaker episodes, a bit like Harry Potter. We spoke to Laurence Kemball-Cook, who is founder and CEO of PaveGen, which is a clean tech company that creates flooring that generates electricity from kinetic energy when you walk on it, which sounds very futuristic. Can you give people a little thing to listen up for in this week's episode?

Hill Vaden:

Sure. So this was another episode that, I guess, I had FOMO.

Sam Humphreys:

You did?

Hill Vaden:

Maybe there's no FOMO when you're actually missing out, but you were lucky enough to host Laurence in our studio in London. And I'm sitting here by myself in our studio in Houston. So, it was great to have him in person.

But yeah, it sounds like it's one of these very futuristic companies. But it's a real company, which is really cool to see people bringing totally new ideas to energy. So converting the kinetic energy from your footsteps into electricity.

And they've got operation in something like 37 countries worldwide. They've signed partnerships with groups like the Minnesota Vikings. People are walking everywhere, so there's lots of things, lots of application. And I just think when you factor in the cost of flooring and the cost of electricity, that there's, if you can reduce one of them. So I think he said it can compare to the cost of high-end flooring, but then you're also taking a lot of the electricity out of that potential stack.

So it's just a really, really cool idea. And it's great conversation. What do you think?

Sam Humphreys:

Yeah, absolutely. It's fascinating to see how much the company has grown over the last 10 years with some really exciting partnerships coming up. I think they are doing some more interesting things imminently, with new flooring in some shopping malls coming soon. So, watch this space and I think we can hand over now. Enjoy.

Hill Vaden:

All right.

Sam Humphreys:

Well, thank you very much, Laurence, for joining us today in our studio. I always like to say this, we're in our studio in London. And you've made the journey, the eight-minute journey from your office to come and join us. So hello and welcome. How are you doing?

Laurence Kemball-Cook:

Really good, thanks. Yeah, it is lovely to have that eight-minute stroll through the City of London, I guess where it's all happening, to come and see you guys.

Sam Humphreys:

Oh, fabulous.

Well, you have come to talk to us. I guess talking about pavements and walking is probably pretty apt about your company, PaveGen. So this is a fascinating company where you'`re generating electricity from kinetic energy on pavements. I'm not going to do any more explaining than that. Can you set us up with what the company is and what you are doing?

Laurence Kemball-Cook:

Yeah, so what we do is every time you walk, we can generate energy from your footsteps. The average person makes around 150 million steps in their lifetime. And imagine if we took the 8 billion or so people multiplied it by 150 million steps each. There's a lot of potential energy there that can be captured. So what our technology does is it's a triangular floor tile that goes on the floor. It looks quite futuristic. It comes in any color. And it can be installed anywhere in the world. And when you walk on it converts that step into electrical power. And we do that through a patented technology that is like a flywheel embedded in the floor, it's hidden. And every time you walk on it, it spins the flywheel that generates energy.

And what's so exciting about this is that it's a really efficient way of converting the weight of a human footstep into power. We believe it's the most efficient way of generating energy.

And people are walking, like whatever happens to this planet, and no matter how much society changes, we're still going to have to move, we're still going to have to run. And you can even dance on it and generate power.

So it can seamlessly fit into your life on your commute, on the train, on the bus, as you go and see your favorite soccer team or NFL team. It works in a stadium. When you go to a museum, it can work there. Schools, anywhere where there's people walking, there's a chance to harvest that power.

And we're using it in different ways. So if you go to Dewpoint Circle, just a stone's throw from the White House, today in Washington, DC, as people walk, their steps are stored in batteries. And we get around 10,000 people a day and that energy is stored. And then all the lights in that area come on at nighttime.

So if there's people, there's power. And if there's no one walking, there's no energy. So we need the people to give us the power.

And then if you go slightly further to Hong Kong. And you run on a running track in the JP Morgan headquarters there. And this running track is on the fourth floor. Now, as people have their lunch breaks, they like to keep fit, but you can't run on the streets of Hong Kong, it's too polluted, it's too dense. But on the PaveGen running track, as you run around this track, your energy is stored. It's used to power the lights in the building. And then we also reward people with their footsteps. So you can donate your footsteps and pay it forward.

So we're using it as a data platform, but also as a way of generating off-grid energy where other renewables won't work, like solar and things like that in dense urban environments.

So that's PaveGen in a nutshell. As you walk and we can convert that into electrical energy.

Hill Vaden:

So this is a super cool idea. And I have just come back from a run, which I suppose could have been turned into electricity with this if it were at Memorial Park in Houston. You mentioned DC, you mentioned Hong Kong, you mentioned London. Where is PaveGen installed today? And is it at a very local or nuanced level? Or is it scalable at an office building or something like that?

Laurence Kemball-Cook:

So we are at a really interesting inflection point. Look, I started the company in my bedroom. And I'm sure we'll talk about that later. Today, we're in 45 countries. We haven't got a mass commoditized scale, in terms of a typical concrete paver that you'd find on every single sidewalk in the world. But we've now got it in airports around the world. And it's places like Abu Dhabi Airport is now using it in Heathrow in London. We've got it in many, many schools across the US, and Europe, and into Asia. We've got it, also, in stadiums.

So we've just done our first NFL team. I'm very excited. We know how passionate people are about the NFL compared to in the UK, we really just like soccer and that's it. But we've got it in our first NFL team. So the Minnesota Vikings are now using it.

Hill Vaden:

Wow.

Laurence Kemball-Cook:

So we've got stadiums, we've got schools, we've got airports, we've got several train stations in the UK. We work with Network Rail. And we've got several of them. And really, we've been on a mission to show people this is a completely new area of innovation around cities. And we know the smart city sector is going to be worth around $4 trillion by 2036. So we know it's a huge area of development.

And so we are at this inflection point now where we've proven it and we're ready for scale over the next few years as we get ready for maybe a listing, or it could be the IPO over it, or trade sale on our future growth.

Sam Humphreys:

So, I want to come back to where you are because I think you installed some PaveGen in, is it West Ham Stadium during the London 2012 Olympics? From a very selfish point, because I was working on the London 2012 Olympics. But we'll skip that for now.

And you're talking about the investment and how you're growing. Can you walk us through what the investment cycle has been like from your start? You said you started this in your bedroom, so how have you managed to scale up to where you are today?

Laurence Kemball-Cook:

Sure. Yeah. So I mean it started as I'm an engineer. I started industrial design and technology. I've always been fascinated around sustainability. I personally believe that designers have more power than anyone else in the world. Because of where you design that, I don't know, the air conditioning controls in your vehicle will have a huge effect on society and danger in cars. And think how powerful things like social media is now. And how the designers behind that have all the power. So I believe design is really, really important, especially for sustainability.

And I got a chance to work at one of the largest European energy companies. And they said to me, "Laurence, we want you to design us some solar streetlights."

And when I was there, I put everything into it. I really tried hard. But at the end of my time there I realized that it wasn't possible to make solar streetlights work. And the main challenge is, there's lots of shading in cities. You only get good sunlight for maybe an hour or two a day.

And so, at the end of this project, they'd invested a huge amount, I said, "Look, it won't work."

And I hanging my head in shame. I said, "I'm really, really sorry it doesn't work."

And I left that company desperately sad that I failed. And I kept thinking about the problem.

And after lots of frustration I suddenly thought, "Well, hold on. Look, we know that there's no sun in cities. And look, there's no wind in cities."

Renewables work amazing if you're on a field on a rooftop, or, in the United Kingdom, we love the North Sea, is great for wind turbines, we're an island.

But then I thought, "Well, what about people power?"

And I just thought, "Hold on, is that an idea?"

I went down this rabbit hole and eventually came out with this concept, got it patented. And in terms of fundraising, from there I did my first, I think it was a 100k raise from friends and family. Then we went ahead and we took on investment from Renaissance Capital, a impact fund called Tamar Capital. And then went forward to have a couple of VCs join as we scaled up.

And I think it's important to do it in stages. For us, the seed funding was, will it work or not? Who knows, it could all go up in smoke.

We redesigned a product multiple times. We went through around 800 different versions of it in production to understand, is it durable? Can it take the harshest environment known to man?

Now the streets in Houston, where you are dialing in from today, Hill, are probably quite pleasant places. It gets rather hot. But I imagine it's not freezing. And there's not rainfall for half-a-year, and hail, and snow, and ice. Whereas, if you go to Washington, and often, London, it can face very different challenges. So we had to make sure that this technology was environmentally robust to withstand those forces. And then we went through that.

I decided I didn't want to give away that huge chunk of equity to a VC fund in the early days. A lot of my friends did, and they're sitting on 5% equity and a bit sad that they're not really, haven't got much play in the game. So I opted to, I had a couple of term sheets in play and I opted to do some crowdfunding. And that allowed us to bring on three or 4,000 investors. It was like a mini IPO. And that really, really helped us with growth.

And then, more recently, we've closed some investment from a member of the Saudi Royal Family, which we're really excited about. And that really focuses us in on the strategic view we've got, which is, look, the Middle East, there's a huge amount of growth there, with places like The Line, NEOM, the Red Sea Project. You could combine every single smart city project in Europe together and it would still not have a fraction on what we're seeing in the Middle East, and this includes UAE. So we're really focusing on strategic investors in that region. And then also in North America, with some of our projects that include places like Yosemite.

So, I think we've had a really interesting fundraising journey with a mix. But we haven't gone all-in on just one VC, so far. And we're looking forward to another fundraising round being launched in the future with the aim of getting to that trade sale, which could be that, or an IPO in the future.

Hill Vaden:

So I love this idea, in part because we seem to approach the next level or the next round of energy thinking about what the old round of energy was, right? And I love these ideas that are completely turning on its head existing concepts.

Can you talk a little bit about the business model? I guess you have to come in, you have to put in this tiling, or the floor, or whatever. Is there somebody signing some sort of PPA for the electricity? How do you fund the installation of this?

Laurence Kemball-Cook:

Yeah, so today, our model is, we sell the hardware to direct to government, and specifically, B2B, as well. So it might be one of the largest shopping malls in Europe, the Westfield Mall. Now they'll buy the hardware from us. And then we have a SaaS service agreement for the data that's produced.

So one thing we realized is, when you walk on PaveGen, yes, it produces energy. But actually, we made energy fun. And what's interesting is you put this thing in and you sit there going, "Okay, look, we powered those lights, guys, great."

And then you go, "People are jumping on it every single day."

In Washington, there's a guy that jumped on it nonstop for six hours. And I said, "What are you doing?"

And he goes, "I'm powering my city."

And that was a really important thing to him, because it's quite easy at the moment, looking at the global politics, and what's going on in the US, is that people feel like they don't really have a choice. They can't really do much to make the world a better place. Whereas, walking on PaveGen is the first step to making change and this ambition loop in society.

So we've realized we've made a really magnetic tool in cities. And so what we do is we have an AI platform that learns about behavior on it that helps cities develop in a more sustainable way. But also, allow people to understand more about user behavior in cities. So it works directly with brands.

So we have a SaaS platform using AI that learns about user behavior on the tiles. We have a energy side, where we'll give the energy for free to the municipality who purchase the product. And then, typically, there's a maintenance package on top of it, as well. So there's free revenue streams for the business.

And then the other one we have is, no one's done this before, right? This is a completely new product category. And one thing we did is we realized that people wanted to use it for events. And I was like, "Okay, no, no, no. We're a very, very serious infrastructure company, working with civil engineers in huge urbanization projects."

And then suddenly all these people say, "Hey, I want to use it in my event."

And so, now we have a completely separate part of our business. It's all owned by PaveGen, but it specializes in events. So Pavegen has been used by Guinness in Chicago for a dance floor on St. Patrick's Day. It's been used to power a huge dance floor in the heart of London, in Trafalgar Square. And it was with Pepsi and the UEFA Soccer League here in the UK, that was used to actually power music performance from 5,000 people dancing. So we have a whole sector of our business that is a rental business working with large groups like Sunbelt Rentals, you might be familiar with, who do some of the biggest festivals in the world. So we have a rental part and a hardware part.

I love seeing our product used in that rental place for some of the biggest, wildest ideas in the world, that really funnels our business, and give us great exposure for those large B2B permanent contracts. Because we know that cities take time. And we're not going to build a city tomorrow. We might have the idea tomorrow, but it might take five, six, seven, eight years-plus till the city actually happens. So we layer that in our revenue stream to give us a constant, really positive cash flow for the business.

Sam Humphreys:

So I'm really glad you brought in the events because pretty much what I was going to ask next. But, I mean, that's a fantastic platform for promotion of your capabilities and what you can do. And I think you said that some of that power that is generated to going into power the festivals, for example.

But where else is that stored? Is that immediate power that's used there and then at the event? Is it stored in batteries and that can be used throughout a prolonged period of time at the event? Can you just expand on that a little bit?

Laurence Kemball-Cook:

Yeah, so you can store the energy directly in batteries. Or you can use it to instantly power lights and things like that.

So, some really good examples. We use the energy in a project in Las Vegas. We got a million steps from Cisco employees at one of their large Cisco live event.

Sam Humphreys:

So there are some incredible applications of this technology that you have said, which is extremely exciting. So, for PaveGen, what areas are you going to focus on? Because that's a lot to cover. Is there any particular one of those that you've just mentioned? Power generating shoes and power generating pavement sounds amazing. Is there an angle that you are looking at at the moment?

Laurence Kemball-Cook:

I guess the way I look at it is, PaveGen is the intel inside future cities. We are that ingredient brand that can power everything. And they might be licensing our intellectual property out to partners, or selling a widget that can be used in any application.

Today, our main focus is selling our technology into smart city urban developments and smart destinations, if you like. And we are learning a lot about the products. We've had a chance to optimize it, make it perform really well, get it super stable.

And, as you know, hardware development is fraught with difficulties. Even Apple got something wrong with their phone. Do you remember the signal that stopped on our iPhone? And so we figured all that out. The risk has gone now in the product. Definitely, in the early days, it was really hard. There was many moments where I didn't think it was possible.

So our focus now is to really grow in our key verticals of smart cities, to have it so that every step you take in the future city will be on top of PaveGen. And then grow the team to a big enough size that will allow us to then focus on the licensing deals off that core component that goes into a PaveGen. And it's come a long way. And it's amazing seeing how efficient it is.

We've got a model now, where if you were to stand on our new tile that we have out, one step power a light for up to 20 seconds.

Sam Humphreys:

Wow.

Laurence Kemball-Cook:

And sometimes people don't even believe it. And obviously, if it's a huge street light, it won't be on for that long. But it's really, really powerful.

And the other thing is, we've recently just developed PaveGen Solar, so it generates energy from people walking but also from the sun. And that was driven by the demand in the Middle East, where for those of you who've been out to places like Saudi Arabia and the UAE, the midday sun is somewhere where no one wants to be outside. You huddle inside in air-conditioned areas. And I guess a bit like Houston in the summer, I haven't been myself, I know it does get hot out there.

And so we were like, "Well, hold on, we've got a product for people. And it's not producing any power until the evening."

And so we created this new hybrid solution that can produce over 100% of the energy. And it's great. Because if you look at the Middle East, no one walks between 11:00 and 2:00, at the hottest parts of the day. But they all come out at night, and they all play, and their kids come out. And it's not uncommon to walk through a busy square at 9:00, 10:00 P.M., and just be full of children just coming out and enjoying the evening with their families.

And so, that, we believe, will give us a lot more energy, but give us a lot more applications that we can power within cities. So we've started looking at charging bays for scooters and electric bikes. And now they're all over our cities, they're incredibly prevalent. And it allows us to look at power in those larger applications with that hybrid solution, as well.

Hill Vaden:

Can you talk a little bit about your supply chain? You've talked about the hardware, you've talked about the software. It would seem that batteries would be an important part of this stack. Are y'all in the battery business? Or are you working with others, that when people, I'm thinking about the office, right, that if people sit down and start working for six or eight hours, there's less footsteps, and you don't want the power to go down. Is there some sort of energy storage process within this?

Laurence Kemball-Cook:

Yeah. So, there's no doubt that the battery storage industry has come on leaps and bounds recently. We started on less acid, now everyone's using lithium, and there's a lot of other talks of other solid state batteries out there that will be very, very much more efficient.

PaveGen usually provides three or four days of redundancy in the power. So let's say that you're in an office environment and it's Christmas Day, the lights don't all go out because no one's in on Christmas Day. There is that storage element there. And also we have backup systems. So a bit like on an elevator in a subway, you always need a redundancy backup.

As far as the technology goes, PaveGen is agnostic to the battery solution we use. Our technology allows us to switch between different storage devices as they come online, as they develop.

So, for example, if we're doing a project in the US, where there's general acceptance of a certain battery chemistry, and we'll use that. Whereas, if we're in Japan, there might be a general acceptance to another chemistry. And we can switch between it. Which is great, because suddenly, when we fully commoditize batteries like we have with solar panels, for example, and PaveGen can jump straight in there and utilize that solution as and when it's ready. So it's really, I guess, flexible and fairly agile as a platform and to use as other devices.

Sam Humphreys:

And just on the supply chain, the tiles themselves, what are they made of? Because part of this whole conversation is about clean energy, and renewable energy, or endless energy from people. So what are the tiles themselves made of? And what is the lifespan of a single tile?

Laurence Kemball-Cook:

Yeah, so it's a really good question.

So, if you were standing above a PaveGen now, you'd see an equilateral triangle. So all the angles on the corners are the same. It's about 45 centimeters each edge. And it's designed to mimic the gait of a human, your average step. Our typical product has a black, shiny finish to it, that looks quite premium and quite edgy and its look.

The triangles move less than 10 millimeters per step. So it feels a bit like walking on a rubber crumb play area or maybe a running track. You notice it, but it doesn't affect your performance as you walk on a tile.

Now today, most of our products are made in the United Kingdom. And we're working really hard to build in 100% recycled aluminum in all of its construction. And using recycled polymers in the construction of the tile itself.

We've just done an innovation to make it, and this is quite boring, for talking about it on short list. But we've made 30% less material in the framing system that goes into it. And it takes 65% less time to install the PaveGen. Which means that all three of us today, could cover your office, and it would probably take us a day. Whereas before, it would take us weeks to do. So we've made it really easy to deploy. We've reduced the material and we're using as much recycled materials in that.

Now, what's really exciting is, as we scale up and we are really, and as we go into this next round of funding, that capitalization will allow us to scale up our production, which means we can actually start to move to 100% recycled materials. It's quite difficult when we're not producing millions and millions of products to access the most cutting-edge manufacturing techniques because they're like, "Hey, we need 10 million units a month, otherwise we're not going to set you up on our production line."

So we'll be able to really reduce that. And we talk about the embodied carbon in our product. And it's not made in China, it's made all in the United Kingdom at the moment. And our ambition is to set up a production hub in all of our key markets, because it's a relatively easy product to make. Now we've de-risked a lot of the IP. And it's, obviously, extremely crucial to make it from the most recycled materials possible.

I actually want to make a recycled chewing gum product. So we take all the recycled gum off the streets of New York and London, and then put them together, and put them back on the sidewalk to create this cradle-to-cradle effect of a really green product.

Sam Humphreys:

That's cool.

Hill Vaden:

Staffing might be a hard one with that if somebody's going to walk around with a scalpel to pick up all the chewing gum off of the sidewalk.

Laurence Kemball-Cook:

Well, yeah, you have got this environmental challenge of people do bad things in cities. And when someone's got a pickax, there's not much that will stop a pickax apart from six inches of steel plate. So we've, obviously, we know we're an environment where people are going to try and destroy you. So we've got to make it really robust, as well.

Hill Vaden:

So this might be a silly question, does the speed of walking, are you getting more electricity at a dance club than you are at a conference, for example, if somebody's moving around really fast? Or are you getting more generation? Or is it something completely agnostic to the pace of movement?

Laurence Kemball-Cook:

So, when you walk, if I was looking at the curvature of the weight distribution of a footstep, you'd land and it peaks. And then when you take off again, there's another peak. So if you think about it, as you're walking down the street, one is the land and, I guess, absorbing in your knee. And the other one is when you push to take off.

Now, if you're running, there's up to double your body weight is experienced on the ground. And, I guess, if you're dancing, now, we have done a lot of work on dancing. It depends on the kind of dancing. Now, next time you're dancing at a festival or a concert, just think, "Is my foot coming off the ground. And at what point does it come off?"

So it depends if it's like heavy metal or electronic music concert. So you need to be dancing fast to get the energy. So if you were putting it in a New York nightclub, yes, you'd probably get more power there.

And the other thing is that the weight is really important. So, the heavier you are, the more power is produced. And we get a lot of requests like, "Hey, we really, really want to put it in the toddler's school or like a nursery," and that is great.

But if you think about the weight of a child, it's a lot less than the weight of a six-foot adult man who's late for work in the city, strutting at a fast pace. There's a lot more energy there. So the average weight of a population has a direct impact on the amount of energy that can be produced.

Sam Humphreys:

That's fascinating.

I can ask about that for hours. But what we want to know really is, you've talked about scaling up and the next phases. So, as we come to the end of all these podcasts, we always like to lean towards, what are the next big milestones for PaveGen that you think we should be looking out for in the next six to 12 months?

Laurence Kemball-Cook:

So I think the main realization is, footsteps don't just take you places, right? Now, they create energy. But they also generate data and unlock insights. So we're building really advanced AI capabilities into our product to allow us to go from, "Yes, it's a really, really exciting energy product. But now it's a really powerful, very unique SaaS platform, that can generate rich data in cities around user behavior."

And a lot of people tried this and failed. And we believe that we've got this platform where walking is so simple and they have to do it. People don't always click on a website. People don't always look at a billboard. But you have to walk.

And what is exciting is it's like Sidewalk Labs, Google's spinout, tried to develop Toronto Seafront. And they wanted to learn all about people's behavior in cities. And evolve beyond web, Web 2.0. And they really realized that it doesn't work because people didn't want Google spying on them, and seeing how long are they sitting on that park bench, and by how you shift your weight on the bench, is that determining how happy you are? And they could maybe monetize that. And they got sued, and they pulled out of the Toronto development.

Now, PaveGen stands in unique position because when you walk, we can learn a lot about your behavior. But we also have this massive pool of, it's a really sustainable tool for developers, retailers, and municipalities to utilize the energy of people. So one is our AI capability is going to be much more penetration in the market.

The second is the product's still expensive, we make it in the UK, it's relatively small production. As we increase and ramp up and the investment round that we're launching shortly, will allow us to increase production, bring down the pricing, make it more efficient, make it more streamlined so it can be a kit that can be shipped to every house.

And, hey, what about if you could put it in your home? What about if you get home and it powers your ring doorbell, and your lights, and your entrance way? And so, there's a lot of other places, as we bring down that price point, where you can buy it in Target, maybe, or Home Depot, or in the UK, B&Q. It will open us up to new markets.

So I think, expect really exciting things from PaveGen over the next coming months in terms of technical development, R&D, scale up. And hopefully, seeing it in your street as you walk to work. Hopefully, you'll see it there.

Hill Vaden:

One quick follow-up question. Yeah, I assume this is more expensive than just a carpet, or sidewalk, or whatever else. But when you factor in the cost of electricity, which most are expecting to get higher, any ideas? Or is that just an unfair comparison to look at how much more it costs when you think about carpet plus electricity or tile plus electricity?

Laurence Kemball-Cook:

Yeah, so the dream for us is to make our product the same price as a typical sidewalk. That's the dream.

Now, unlike solar, typically, you put solar on top of an existing rooftop. But on a new build, everyone needs a floor. And there's a budget allocated for flooring. So today, with the same price as a high-end floor that you'd find in a luxury mall or hotel. So, if you compare it to the flooring that's out, we're on par with the high-end. And we aim to drive that price point down to get it to be commoditized in line with a normal, typical concrete paver.

I don't think we'll ever get it as cheap as the lowest cost carpet out there. I think when you do something as unique as generating energy, there's always going to be a higher price point.

But if you think about it, what does your carpet do for you? It feels nice under your feet and looks good. PaveGen will look nice, feel really good, give you unique data that you can monetize, and then also give you energy. So there's a lot more we offer. And we believe that having a slightly higher price point than maybe a, I don't know, $10-a-square meter carpet is still really, really exciting for the global flooring market.

And how many meters of flooring is there in the world? I don't think I've ever put together a stat for how many meters there is in the entire planet, but it's a huge number. And I think that's what we're really excited about is the potential of the market that we're looking at.

Sam Humphreys:

Oh, this is fantastic. I think the applications are not quite endless, but pretty fantastic.

Thank you so much for joining us today, in sunny-ish London? It's not sunny at all. And we really look forward to seeing more coming out of PaveGen in the future. And, yeah, keep a close eye. And hopefully, have you back on some day.

Laurence Kemball-Cook:

Great, thanks so much for having us. And we're excited to launch our fundraise next month, which is going to be on PaveGen. So really, really fired up for it. And thanks so much for your time guys, thank you.

Hill Vaden:

Thank you, Laurence.