Change Makers: Carter Li, SWTCH founder and CEO

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Hill Vaden:

Hello and welcome to EnergyCents, an S&P Global Commodity Insights podcast covering all topics on the intersection of energy and finance. This is one of your hosts, Hill Vaden, talking with one of your other hosts, Sam Humphreys. Sam, how are you doing?

Sam Humphreys:

Not too bad. Thanks, Hill. How are you?

Hill Vaden:

I am doing all right. We are entering the Christmas holiday season or the holiday season, I guess. It's lots of holidays and you did have Christmas lights or holiday lights up behind you. They're not... Oh, they were.

Sam Humphreys:

It's not... They're on a timer. And I didn't know that that existed on this little battery, so they're little battery pack Christmas lights. I realized this is going out in January. So apologies, people, that are taking all their decorations down, but it's got a setting that switches them off. And yeah, I hadn't realized. But they're gone but they're around my little Harry Potter castles. Made it much more entertaining to look at.

Hill Vaden:

Yeah. No, you're very Grinch-ish. Are you a fan of The Grinch? Not in terms of do you like The Grinch?

Sam Humphreys:

I was told by my parents that I didn't like The Grinch for my whole childhood. I have never seen it or read it, but I was told I didn't like it because my mom didn't like it. And then I've watched it recently with my kids and read the book and I love it.

Hill Vaden:

The original one, not the Jim Carrey one.

Sam Humphreys:

Not the Jim Carrey one.

Hill Vaden:

The cartoon.

Sam Humphreys:

But the cartoon one and the book, it's great. I love it. It's so happy. It's miserable, but it's also happy.

Hill Vaden:

It's happy. Spoiler alert, it has a happy ending. For the one person who hasn't read or seen The Grinch.

Sam Humphreys:

That was me until about a year ago. There are people out there, apparently.

Hill Vaden:

We were church last week and we left and my son goes, "That lady in front of us looked like Cindy Lou Who."

Sam Humphreys:

I can picture her now. It's a very distinct look.

Hill Vaden:

Not a reference I was expecting from him. Well, we are not here to talk about Grinch's. We just had a great conversation with Carter Li, who is a founder and CEO of SWTCH, which is an electric vehicle charging company, electric vehicle charging solution that's really focused on multifamily living properties and commercial properties for public charging. And it was, I thought, a great conversation.

Sam Humphreys:

Yeah, absolutely.

Hill Vaden:

What should people listen to or for?

Sam Humphreys:

For, yeah.

Hill Vaden:

Or listen to the conversations.

Sam Humphreys:

Plus, there's no I in SWTCH.

Hill Vaden:

There's no I in SWTCH, yes.

Sam Humphreys:

There's no I in SWTCH. No, this was a brilliant conversation. So people that have listened to this podcast for a while know we've spoken to a few EV solution companies now, and this one was fabulous because it was a great conversation that they are approaching things in a slightly different way. So they're partnering, like you said, with multifamily residential properties as well as universities, office buildings.

And something that I thought was particularly interesting is their solution for how long a customer may be parked in a spot for their charging needs. So if you're at home, you're not going to need to charge it within half an hour. You might be there all night. Whereas if you are visiting a shopping mall, it's a lot quicker. So the flexibility they have to adjust the timings of charging is really fascinating.

And they've got some great partnerships. Carter does a great job of going into some of the partnerships and they have at the moment with utility companies and other EV charging solutions. Spoiler, its electric crops up again. But yeah, it was brilliant.

Hill Vaden:

It was at recent.

Sam Humphreys:

Yeah. It was a really good conversation and I think a company we can be watching for a while to come yet. But what about you? What did you think?

Hill Vaden:

Yeah, just I'll echo what you said. I really enjoyed the conversation. Carter started the company in 2016, so they've been around for a long time, though still have that innovative startup mentality to them. And they've got something like 17,000 chargers operating across the US and Canada, so already a big footprint. And as we know, if you're going to get involved in the energy business, you got to get to scale if you want to survive. And so they are, I don't know, at what point one reaches scale in an electric vehicle infrastructure, but they've got a lot of chargers and they seem to be close or already there. So it'll be, as you say, an interesting to watch, interesting one to watch.

Sam Humphreys:

Absolutely.

Hill Vaden:

All right, we'll head off to the conversation now.

Okay, Carter, Sam, thanks for joining us today to talk about SWTCH as part of our EnergyCents Changemakers Series. Carter, I do want to talk about SWTCH, the company, and really hear your pitch. But before we do, SWTCH is spelled S-W-T-C-H. And Sam and I are curious if the I has removed because there's no I in team and you want to promote collaboration, or if there's another reason that you remove the I.

Carter Li:

Yeah, that's a great question. We obviously get that a lot. There's definitely a double entendre here. There' no I in SWTCH but also you think about all the other things you have to do in terms of getting an email domain or a website domain. And the I is probably already taken. When you search up SWITCH, you might come up with a Nintendo Super Mario ad or something like that.

Hill Vaden:

It's true.

Sam Humphreys:

Yeah, I hadn't thought of that.

Carter Li:

So yeah, we settled with the SWTCH without an I. We are fully aware that we don't know how to spell, but it's part of the charm.

Sam Humphreys:

We like it.

Hill Vaden:

Well, it's very efficient and implicitly collaborative. So SWTCH without an I. You started in 2016. You are headquartered in Toronto. Can you describe a little bit more about the company for those less familiar and effectively pitch us the idea?

Carter Li:

For sure, for sure. As you mentioned, we started this in 2016. We're headquartered in Toronto, Canada, and we also have offices in Brooklyn and Boston as well. So still a relatively small team, about 95 people. We raised about $50 million to date. And the real genesis of the company was for me to solve my own personal challenge of owning an electric vehicle while living in a downtown apartment. This was initially in 2015. I was working full-time as a manage consultant. I was always sustainability-oriented as I was working at the LEAF, went to the property management. Long story short, I didn't succeed in that first endeavor to get electric vehicle charging in my downtown parking apartment building.

Sam Humphreys:

So is that the focus then of SWTCH, looking at multi-residential buildings? So blocks of, I'm going to say blocks of flats, apartment buildings or business where you have a car park, for example, like an office. So is that the focus? Is that the driver behind this?

Carter Li:

Yeah, I think just think about large high density multi-tenant buildings. So nowadays, it's all mixed use anyways. Sometimes you have a condominium or apartment building that has a shopping center at the face of it, and then there's also offices and stuff. So that, again, I guess delineation has been blurred a little bit. And for us, it's really about solving it for high density buildings, because they're very similar challenges of trying to install charging within those locations.

Hill Vaden:

And so how many cities? Can you give us an idea of where you are in terms of scale today, how many cities you're operating in, how many chargers you've got online, the overall footprint?

Carter Li:

Yeah. I don't know specific cities because it's probably a decent amount, but we have about 17,000 chargers deployed at about 2,000 locations across North America. So probably in most major cities at this point, I think, in North America. I haven't done an explicit analysis of it, but as far as I can tell, we're pretty much across the board in the United States and Canada at this point.

Sam Humphreys:

And so has there been a specific focus on, say, East Coast expansion or looking at Canada? Did Canada come first because that's where your headquarters and then you moved south a little bit? What was the rationale behind that?

Carter Li:

I think as you said, we started in eastern Canada because that's where I'm currently based. I live in Toronto, Canada, and we moved to what you would think is the natural high density centers across North America, like New England, New York, the Northeast, and then California. So where you think the large pockets of electric vehicle adoption are in North America and where the high density urban centers are in North America, that's how we slowly expanded.

Hill Vaden:

Okay. And so SWTCH itself, can you describe a little bit about what makes you guys different than other EV infrastructure companies? Is there a software that helps to identify where the chargers are? Are you actually putting the kit together and building the chargers and managing and owning and operating them? What's the actual business model?

Carter Li:

So for us, real estate wants EV charging to be simple and straightforward. They don't have as much time as, say, like a utility or some other group that operates them on a large scale basis. So they really want the easy button. And for us to provide that easy button, it's really about providing the hardware, providing the software, and providing the operations and maintenance all in one package, providing everything as a service to that.

Now, think about what that means, EV charging for specifically multi-tenant buildings. Anybody could sell to one of these locations and a lot of groups do. But what makes us different is really the focus around the technology and the business models to make it easier for drivers, for site managers, and for building owners to operate these chargers and to use these chargers in these locations. And I can go down in more detail in terms of the technology and the business models, but that's really high level what we think of as our business model and how we approach the market.

Sam Humphreys:

All right. So maybe let's go into a little bit more of those, the technology side because I'm quite curious onto that. So you mentioned the software side, which I'm pretty curious about. I was reading something earlier. So can you just explain a little bit by what you mean, for that for customers under the building owners? So the drivers and the building owners.

Carter Li:

So what's unique about these locations is it's like really what we believe is the ideal place to charge your vehicles because it's where you live. I like to use analogy of a mobile cell phone. Where do you usually charge your mobile cell phone? You usually charge it when you go to bed and you plug it in and it's full the next morning. And why is that? Well, it's because it's the most convenient, right? You're using it throughout the day. You're not going anywhere to charge your cell phone. It's just part of your daily routine. And for us, that's the ultimate charging experience as well. You don't have to go out of the way to charge your vehicle. You are usually going to come home at night and you're going to sleep at night. And when you wake up in the next morning, ideally that vehicle will be charged.

So providing that charging experience in these locations is that's what's the fundamental convenience. But how do we do that? The average building in North America is over 40, 50 years old. They were never designed with the infrastructure needed to provide charging in within these locations. And if they do, it's usually like, well, there's only enough electrical capacity for two or three or four chargers. And then people like to use the example of what if my car is full in the middle of the night and I have to get it up and remove it?

For us, the advantage of these locations is that you look at how long the vehicles are parked there for the average parking dwell time is over 10 hours. But then you look at how long they're usually charged for and it's actually usually under three or four hours. So there's this huge time that you can optimize for every single vehicle within that parkade to have a full charge because you have that luxury of time, which is different from public charging because when you're in public charging, you go somewhere, you don't want to wait around and you want to go as fast as you can. But because you're sleeping at night, does it really matter if it's full at 1:00 AM in the morning or 2:00 AM in the morning? No, as long as it's full by the time you wake up.

So for us to provide that amenity to that service to people, energy management is a core piece of our technology, but the energy management is core in that way that you have this luxury of time that you can optimize between different individuals. And what I mean by that is think about a car that has 50% battery that's being plugged in versus a person that has 10% battery that's being plugged in. You probably want that person with 10% battery to be charging a little bit faster than the other one who's 50% because they're all probably going to wake sometime after 5:00 or 6:00 AM. And then that's where we're looking at through that lens. When we think about energy management on the public side of things, it's all about using batteries and things like that to speed up charging. Whereas we're saying we can slow down charging, but we can slow down charging that doesn't ultimately affect your driver experience. So as long as you wake up and it's full the next morning.

Hill Vaden:

So question on that. And I'm thinking back to when I used to live in an apartment in DC. If I got home before 4:00, I got a parking spot. If I got home after 4:00, I was driving around looking for a parking spot. So does your infrastructure have premier parking connected with it? And carry on question, if I get home at say 5:00 and I pull in and start charging my battery, maybe my battery's full in 20 minutes, maybe it's full in three hours. Do I then have to move? If I get home at 9:00, do I have to move my car at 12:00 in the morning or get towed? What's the relationship with the real estate partner on that?

Carter Li:

And now you're really starting to get into the thick of things. There are so many challenges around the logistics of those things. What you mentioned is usually a rental apartment where there's no dedicated parking spots. It's usually floating and you just show up and you show up and whatever is available is available.

So part of what we do is integrating with parking management platforms. If you're thinking about coming into work and say you don't have parking at home, and usually when you come to work you have to book your rooms, your conference rooms, your whatever. Well, what if you could book your parking spot and you can book your parking spot with an electric vehicle charger there as well? Those are all the things that we think about to make it easier for drivers to get access to charging when they need it.

And to your follow-on question around the allocation of timing, it's like what if I'm cooking dinner by the time at 6:00 PM when my car is full and I'm then loitering there? The concepts of allocated reservation slots, the allocation of time, the concepts of loitering and loitering enforcement is all part of our package because anyone could build a calendar, but if you show up for your time and somebody's still parked there, then what's the point of that calendar? There needs to be some sort of automated enforcement mechanisms, whether it's a financial penalty or prevents you from charging the next couple of days or something at that location because you've violated the rules. There's all kinds of different approaches to that, but enforcement around timing and reservations is a key part of the overall package of providing charging within these settings.

Sam Humphreys:

So if we are looking at residential buildings, for example, you mentioned then that most North American properties are around, which I own in the UK, so most properties are a lot older than this, but 40 to 50 years old. Is the expansion like to partner with developers that are building new residential properties in urban areas, so new apartment buildings, a possibility so that you are up and ready with the allocated parking spaces and infrastructure built in ready to go. Is that something that you guys look at, or is it pretty much just existing properties at the moment?

Carter Li:

Both, actually. And they actually face very different challenges but very important challenges. I think for existing buildings, the challenge is there's just was never enough electrical infrastructure for that location. So it's about maximizing the existing electrical infrastructure. Now, for new buildings, a lot of real estate developers are facing this requirement around building codes where they have to provide a minimum amount of parking stalls that have dedicated electric vehicle charging infrastructure. And some of the requirements are fairly robust in terms of it's up to 25%, even in some locations, 100% EV readiness in all their parking stalls.

So it's a huge challenge about then building the infrastructure needed for a new building. At that point, you have important concrete, but you still need to stack enough electrical capacity for all these parking stalls. And that could be very cost-prohibitive. But if you implement an electric vehicle charging system that has energy management baked into the ecosystem, you can save a lot of money around conduits, around electrical panel capacity, a lot of these other things that reflect potentially millions of dollars of infrastructure savings within that project if executed correctly.

Hill Vaden:

I got to come back to the enforcement question. Do you guys have a fleet of tow trucks, or what is the enforcement? Or do you just start charging high fees for anybody that's in the middle of dinner or sound asleep?

Carter Li:

Right. So I think the most important part is around communication, around shared charging. You go in that space, you're notified right away that this is a loitering-enforced location. But you also, the rules around enforcement are also flexible and it's determined by the site operators. And usually they're forgiving. There's usually a grace period. So for example, if your car is full, you're usually given a notification of, "Hey, your car is fully charged. You have 30 minutes to vacate the location." And then afterwards they will be a financial penalty for loitering essentially. So the purpose of this is not to de-incentivize people from owning electric vehicles. The purpose is to incentivize people from respectfully sharing these resources in the building.

Sam Humphreys:

Okay. I have a question. So we've talked about the slow charging compared to fast charging. So like you say, you want to charge a car overnight and it'd be ready for when you wake up. Is there then a price difference in that charging? So if you're in a public car park, for example, say at a university, is that more expensive to have a fast charge because you're there for a short amount of time compared to when you're parking a car overnight when you're at home?

Carter Li:

Yeah, that's a great question. So when you design the speed of charging, you design it around the average dwell time for that location. So if you're at a movie theater for example, then the dwell time should be around two hours. If you're at a shopping mall, maybe an hour. So when you spec the charging, you don't want it to be too fast or too slow. A lot of the times when we have commercial customers who are installing charging at office buildings, they're like, "Oh, we want to put in the fastest charging." And that's okay. For people who are coming in and out, like say visitors just for a meeting and stuff, that's probably the ideal setting. But what if you work there and you have back-to-back-to-back meetings from the morning all the way to lunchtime and your car was full at 9:30 or 9:40 and you would be just loitering there for the next two, three hours that nobody couldn't charge.

Because you have provided a slower charger in that location where you're not loitering, you can have more chargers for more stalls because you're splitting that power now between, say, 10 parking stalls versus one concentrated parking stall. So that design mix is really, really important. And what we've done in many of our locations is we have a really, really fast charger or two or three really fast chargers at an office building, then 20 or 30 slower chargers at those buildings, because then you have the 20 or 30 for people who work there at that office who park there all day and then you have the two or three transient visitors that can get a quick charge over there. So that optimization is really important from a project design perspective.

Hill Vaden:

Makes a lot of sense. All right, so it's December 2024. You guys started in 2016 so you guys have been around for a little while. Some of your major investors include, I'm going to read these, IBI Group, Align Climate Capital, Active Impact Investments, Elantra, Blue Earth Capital. Can you talk to us a little bit about where you are in terms of your funding and life as a... Can I still call you a startup after eight years or is that insulting?

Carter Li:

It's all relative, right? To 100-year-old company, for sure we're definitely a startup and we're still figuring things out. But yeah, we've done a few things. 17,000 chargers, you learn some things along the way. And for us, yes, we still think we're an early stage tech company. We're learning a lot. We've matured a lot. But we've had, like you mentioned, great partners along the way. We recently had a large energy producer called Constellation join us as part of our consortium of investors. So we're really, really excited about-

Hill Vaden:

Constellation, one who's in the headlines with their partnership in Microsoft as well?

Carter Li:

I believe so.

Hill Vaden:

All right.

Carter Li:

So the Constellation used to be affiliated with Exelon. They're one of the large renewable energy producers. So I think that we're referring to the same one, but we can edit that out if we made a mistake. But yeah, part of these partnerships, we've always looked at their emissions and think they looked at our emissions and such, and we've been very aligned along the way. Practically every one of our investors are energy-focused and climate-focused. So I think that's been really helpful in having that common vision around where we want to go and what we want to achieve as a company.

Sam Humphreys:

So I guess one thing that we haven't touched on is renewable power. So when you have your investors, you just mentioned them, and one of the great things about EVs is the reduction in carbon output. So is there then partnerships, it's a bit tricky when you're on grids, but with renewable investors into certain areas that are supplying the electricity, or is that beyond your scope?

Carter Li:

No. Yeah, to your point, it's very important for us. We're actually involved in quite a few microgrid projects that involve solar battery storage. One particular net-zero community in Northern Ontario that we're excited to be part of is coordination with smart thermostats, energy storage. And we do a fair bit of R&D work around, you're familiar with this concept, around bidirectional charging of using the vehicles themselves as energy storage devices to complement energy generation resources to make it a lot more cost-effective because at batteries, energy storage sometimes, infrastructure could be heavy in terms of cost, but if you already have these existing resources like electric vehicles and they can be used as battery energy storage devices, then sometimes it makes the projects a lot more cost-effective.

Hill Vaden:

Can you talk a little bit more about some of these partnerships? So I know your partner, you've obviously NextEra and Constellation just came up that a friend of EnergyCents and some of the other... Sorry, I'm drawing a blank here.

Sam Humphreys:

Tiya Gordon, It's Electric.

Hill Vaden:

Tiya Gordon at It's Electric. Yeah, sorry.

Carter Li:

It's Electric, yeah.

Hill Vaden:

A partnership. There's a banana for you. So you've got partnership with NextEra, you've got partnerships with Constellation, with CBRE, the real estate investment trust, and obviously the friend of EnergyCents and It's Electric. How are these partnerships... I know each partnership is going to be a little bit different, but can you talk a little bit about what you're looking for in a partnership with utility? I think the real estate investment trust is, I'll say, obvious with fingertips in the air. And then It's Electric as a partner in a very similar space to you.

Carter Li:

Yeah, Nathan and Tiya were really good from It's Electric and it's great that we share the common vision and the challenges of promoting electric vehicle adoption. They have a fantastic platform and product in terms of addressing that challenge around curbside electric vehicle charging. And we're just lending a hand from a technology lens of some of the software and some of the backend infrastructure platform, energy management things that we're helping them with. And we complement each other as well because our technology is not able to address the challenges of curbside electric vehicle charging. And so how do we share the knowledge and the technology that we've all built together to address different challenges within the larger urban electric vehicle ownership puzzle, if you will?

So yeah, there's always these pockets of these niches of electric vehicle charging challenges that we're all solving. But there's also, from a technology lens, we're also thinking it more upstream, right? Because we've been hearing about the lack of infrastructure now, not just on a building level but on a grid level of now we have all these server forms for AI and now we have electric vehicle charging and we're going to need a ton more energy production from that in that regard. So how do we do that again efficiently?

We have a lot of these nuclear power plants that are coming online and they have a huge baseload and they're not being really optimized at certain periods of the day because people are just using electricity less during that certain period. But you can't turn down a nuclear reactor, so you have this unutilized base load. So by working with large utilities around demand response, about distributed energy resource aggregation, you can flex that and balance these loads out a little bit more, especially with the fact that you can use electric vehicles as battery energy storage devices.

So we're very, very excited about our collaboration with NextEra, with Constellation, with a few other utilities that I won't mention on this podcast. But yeah, it really is the potential is there. Our technology is there. Now, it's about when it scales to a much larger deployment base, how do we coordinate between everybody? And I think that's going to be really important in the next five to 10 years.

Sam Humphreys:

You're setting us up great. It's always the last question of the podcast, but there's one I wanted to ask before we get there. And it's related but it's something I read today. So today is December 5th, and I was reading today that you've partnered with Portland State University to provide their EV charging service. And the one thing I was reading that I was particularly interested in is part of your tech is allowing carbon offsets to be calculated, scaled, worked out. And before we wrap up, I was really curious about this aspect of your whole package really, because this is something that we talk a lot about in industry now. Companies are very interested in having that number. Can you just very briefly just explain what that is and how you guys calculate it or what you get from it?

Carter Li:

For sure. I think first is from these calculations, and we integrate with different platforms that specifically focus on capturing GHG emission intensities of different regions because I think the biggest thing in terms of how much carbon we're able to offset or how much we're able to prevent is based on, well, we're offsetting with the understanding that with the electricity that's charging these vehicles are somewhat clean as well. If you're using coal to generate electricity to then charge your vehicles, sadly your EV, they're not probably zero-emission.

So I think all those things need to be considered while calculating for the amount of carbon emission reduction that we do. And so we have our own platform. We integrate with specialty platforms as well that help real estate developers and people who report on this on a regular basis to do that. And that understanding then helps for them to report on their ESG commitments, but also they allow them to participate in carbon credit markets which can further reduce the costs of these investments. We're seeing that market now grow across the United States with obviously California being the main one, but also Washington State and Oregon as well, that's going to ramp up the programs. And there's also Canadian programs as well that's currently in British Columbia, and there's also a federal one in Canada. So all those things help to, I guess, reduce the risk of investments into electric vehicle charging to make it easier for people to deploy them on mass.

Hill Vaden:

All right, so Sam tipped our hand here, but we'll go ahead and ask you a final question just try to keep on time. I'm really impressed by the conversation so far, not because of anything that I've said, but because of everything that you've said. But if we're thinking about the next six to 12 months or even the next six years, talk to us about the world looks like for SWTCH in the immediate term and a little bit longer. You guys, it is hard to call you a startup after eight years, but sounds very innovative and there's a lot of things happening and I love the partnerships with these very large companies as well.

Carter Li:

Yeah. There's no beating around the bush in terms of the policies and the politics have obviously shifted in the last couple of months, and we were anticipating that might have been the case. But I think as an industry matures, I think that was probably going to happen sooner or later in terms of if policies change, the incentives probably will change and maybe eventually go away. But I think it's important as an industry and be respectful of everybody, taxpayers and everything, that eventually we need to stand up our own two feet and be self-sufficient. So that means as an industry that we have to really be more cost-efficient, be more thoughtful in how we scale our infrastructure, how to do it very cost effectively, because it's very, very easy to spend a lot of money on infrastructure and really not get the deployment that we want to make it easier for people to get access to convenient charging. But I think there is a bright future for our industry. I think it'll just require a lot more thought and effort to make it more efficient to deploy infrastructure on that.

Hill Vaden:

All right, that's a fairly optimistic look. I think there's plenty of good reasons to be optimistic. I guess one quick question on the policy. In terms of these potential policy changes in the US, most of the policies directed at the vehicle itself, so as a concern, more the pace of adoption rather than anything specific to your infrastructure?

Carter Li:

Yeah, I think so. I think so. Yeah, if there's going to be less vehicles on the road than anticipated to be charging, then the utilization might be a little lower than it anticipated. So I think that reflects on some business models that rely on potentially increased utilization. So the charging infrastructure. So all things to keep in mind, but I still believe, and you look at all the reports and the analysts and things like that, that the adoption will continue to increase and it'll increase not for necessarily sustainability reasons. It'll increase just from a cost perspective. You look at the large markets of EV adoption that are way ahead of the North American curve and it's because there's just cheaper to buy at point and cheaper to operate. And those battery prices will continue to drop and that will be reflected in North American prices as well.

And maybe overly optimistic, but I think if you're not motivated by necessarily the sustainability aspect of things, which I obviously is very important, but if you're motivated financially, I think people will eventually move to electric vehicles as the default, at least for light duty vehicles.

Hill Vaden:

And tell me if I'm wrong here, but even if no one sells another EV again in the US, we still don't have enough charging infrastructure to meet the needs existing EVs. So I think you're in a better spot than some of the people trying to sell EVs themselves.

Carter Li:

But I do think it's like we're in this together and we want everybody to succeed and so we make it easier for... Part of the reason why they can't sell enough EVs is because of EV infrastructure. And so if we do our part then the chicken and egg problem, right? So hopefully we'll get there and success on both fronts.

Hill Vaden:

All right, a very collaborative response because there's no I in SWTCH, right?

Carter Li:

Yeah.

Hill Vaden:

All right. Well, Sam, anything from you before we sign off?

Sam Humphreys:

No. Thank you very much, Carter. That was a really good conversation and I look forward to what you guys do next.

Hill Vaden:

Yeah, thanks so much Carter.