Emmanuel Roman on Investing in 2023, Private Markets, PIMCO Culture & Arsenal FC

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Joseph Cass

Hello, and welcome back. My name is Joe Cass, Senior Director, S&P Global Ratings and the hosting creator of the FI in 15 podcast. Today, I'm talking to Emmanuel Roman, CEO of PIMCO and Martina Cheung, president of S&P Global Ratings and executive sponsor of S&P Global Sustainable1. Today, we're going to talk about markets in 2023. We're going to talk about private debt, Davos, football, and also working in finance during a recession. So a quick reminder that the views of the external guests are their views alone and they do not represent the views of S&P Global Ratings. Okay, great. Manny and Martina, thank you very much for joining today.

Emmanuel Roman

Pleasure to be here.

Martina Cheung

Thanks, Joe.

Joseph Cass

Great stuff. So Manny, we will start with you. So the obvious place to start is on the topic of rising rates and inflation. What is PIMCO's high-level view of fixed income at the moment? Is owning bonds finally cool again?

Emmanuel Roman

Well, thank you for asking this. Maybe I can sort of reframe the question and talk about 2022. So 2022 in terms of financial returns was sort of like the worst year you've seen in 100 years. It was tough in equity. It was tough in bond. And essentially, it is a big impulse from the post-COVID world associated with the war in Ukraine. And the world has seen much more inflation than any of us expected.

And this was surprising and I think the bond market and the equity market reacted quite strongly. And so coming out of 2022, you had a total reset of financial condition and valuation. And on the bond part, it looks attractive. I'm incredibly reluctant to sort of pick the perfect entry point. But one way to think about it is you build essentially expected return. And what you have in bond is a return anywhere from 6% to 7% which by historical standard looks pretty good, given the fact that equities usually deliver something like 8%.

So we went from an environment at the end of 2021 where bonds weren't so attractive to an environment where bonds are very attractive. And of course, there may be one bad print of inflation along the way, but the reality is the central case from a PIMCO standpoint is that inflation slowly but surely gets under control and that at the end of the year, we have an annualized rate below 3%.

Joseph Cass

Great. So Martina, credit ratings are, of course, impacted by trends and issuance in the bond market. Given a pretty volatile 2022, as Manny just said, what's keeping you awake at night in 2023?

Martina Cheung

Yes. Well, most of the factors that Manny mentioned actually are continuing to keep me awake at night. We certainly have seen indications of continued commitment to higher interest rates given that inflation is quite sticky. And obviously, the uncertainty around the war in the Ukraine, the timing of that or any resolution on that. And we have the U.S. debt sitting question, which as of now, remains unresolved. So we see -- I mean, our base case is a mild recession in 2023 and we definitely are seeing banks stockpiling cash, for example, in anticipation of that.

Emmanuel Roman

But you have a lot of anchoring bias also, right? I mean all of us look at tech and tech is going through a really rough patch and a day doesn't go by without any -- some of the big tech company announcing poor result and layoff. But none of us for -- at least at PIMCO, we look so closely at the oil and gas industry, which is going to start releasing this quarter and going to have great results. But we're more concerned about Google and Microsoft than we are about Chevron and ExxonMobil, which is interesting.

Joseph Cass

Fantastic. Thank you both. So Manny, I wanted to talk to you a bit about private debt. So private debt has drawn in a host of new investors over the past kind of couple of years. What are PIMCO's interest levels in private debt? And where do you see opportunity?

Emmanuel Roman

So private debt is a very broad concept. It could be loans, it could be private transaction, it could be distress. There's a lot of different instruments which fall into this category. And I think that sometimes they are super attractive and sometimes they're not. And our skill is essentially to run money and maximize return for our investors, keeping in mind the liquidity that we are being given.

So once again, to come back to the previous example that I had before, if 6.5% is a reasonable return in terms of a BBB bond going forward, what's the right level of return for private debt and distress? And if you think through this, I would say for private debt of the same rating, I would go from 6.5% to 8%, 8.5% and then if you go down to lower rated company, it needs to be above 10%. And distress can be incredibly attractive, but you need to get paid for this. And there has been a lot of money going into direct lending.

So people have been competing against the bank to lend money to BB company. And I'm sure you're going to have accident. And some of this company, as Martina said, through the business cycle gets tested. When they get tested, you may or may not trigger confidence and then some of this private debt will go from 100 to 60 or 65. And that may provide for people like us some real opportunity.

And so our strategy is to have plenty of dry powder, make sure we match our asset and our liability, and when the opportunity comes, make sure we get paid for the risk we take. And I think historically, that has been a really, really good strategy. 2009 was a great time to invest. So was 2003, so was 1997, so was 1991. And the U.S. offers incredibly good bankruptcy protection.

And so you have a legal framework to work with. And our own view is that the best two places to put money in a distressed cycle are Europe and the U.S., simply because it's a well-beaten path and you know what to expect. And so we are eagerly waiting for the opportunity. We put some money to work. And then as Martina said, our central case is a mild recession. If the recession becomes harder, there will be many more opportunities. And vice versa, if the opportunity becomes milder and the recession is milder, then we'll have less money to put to work. And I think you just need to be very disciplined.

Joseph Cass

Fantastic. Thanks, Manny. So Martina, from the S&P Global Ratings' perspective, how are we approaching private debt and where do we fit into this market?

Martina Cheung

Well, we've seen obviously a huge volume of capital formation in this area in the last couple of years, in particular, Joe. So it's something that we've been looking at very carefully. And at most basic, public and private markets you know, are similar. It's companies face the same challenges, whether it's inflation, supply chain, recession pressures, et cetera. And so we're interested in creditworthiness and credit fundamentals. And those opinions are very important in the context of either public or private credit.

We work closely with the sponsors in this area. We have a variety of ways in which we rate at the parent level, fund level, and within portfolios also. So we look at it in the same way with robust analysis. I will say, I think there is -- to Manny's point, there was a big question last year around the extent to which, you know, if there was a more severe recession, how some of those portfolios would hold up and how smaller companies that might have landed in various different investment strategies would fare.

That doesn't seem to be as significant a concern, although, again, Manny's point was excellent, it varies tremendously by sector. One of the other questions that we've been hearing a lot from investors is whether the liquidity risk is worth the premium and that's something that I think a lot of investors are giving some thought to also.

Joseph Cass

So Manny, we've seen a number of advances in the field of innovation in AI, ChatGPT, most recently. So how is PIMCO looking to embrace this type of innovation in a way that could benefit your investment process and ultimately, your clients?

Emmanuel Roman

So we are a very, very big investor in tech. And to give you some sort of framework, 28% of our headcount works in tech. And so when I think of a business strategy, we need to invest in tech. We need to invest in quant. We need to invest in private credit. And the tech part is challenging because we compete against enormous company on the West Coast who hire some of the best talent.

I'm talking about the Google, the Microsoft, the Amazon and have very big budget in terms of what they invest in artificial intelligence. And so for us, they are offensive and defensive way to use AI and other tools that you just mentioned like ChatGPT. Offensive in terms of generating alpha, looking at what we do in credit research and look at 10-Q and 10-K, in terms of writing marketing document, in terms of looking at our IMA, looking at our client account, answering settlement question, and essentially making sure that we use technology to increase productivity across the job function.

And ChatGPT in terms of what we can do is simply amazing. We have a partnership with OpenAI. I think we're incredibly bullish about how they're going to change the way we do work. And the bigger risk is that we cannot invest enough in technology, not that we don't see it. And we've made a series of investment outside of PIMCO in terms of partnership. We'll do more. I think I'm as excited about what I'm seeing as I have ever been. And hopefully, I'll be proven right.

But this is quite wonderful. And I think we'll also make people's job better because it reduces some of the most repetitive and manual tasks that they have to do. No one enjoyed looking at an IMA and making sure that every spending mistake and term is right. The computer can do that much faster and much better. I think it makes people's life at PIMCO better.

Joseph Cass

Great. Thanks, Manny. So Martina, transition finance brings a whole new set of challenges, but also opportunities to credit ratings. Given you're the president of S&P Global Ratings, but also the executive sponsor of S&P Global Sustainable1, what's your view on the road to net zero, its growing importance, time scale, and also the level of acceptance?

Martina Cheung

Well, Manny set this up really well when he said the oil and gas sector is going to be very tight. And I would say, just to take a step back, if you look at the capital that's available around this right now, there is an oversupply from a demand standpoint. So globally, last year, our Commodity Insights team estimated that about $250 billion was raised in private equity targeting infrastructure spend driven by energy transition, not distinctly within the energy sector, but across all sectors.

And the estimate is also -- there's about 1/3 of the global dry powder in private equity that could be directed at this as well. You pair on top of that the IRA, the fact that there's some really, I would say, productive ways of looking at tax treatment there, the European Global Gateway plan that was announced last year with €300 billion in spend over the next five years.

And you have a really, really interesting story in terms of capital. But when I talk to our Commodity Insights team in the last months, their view also is that specifically in the commodity sectors, 2023 is going to be the time when the best assets are available and will get snapped up. And so they were actually raising the question of whether the banks and arrangers actually will have the capacity to get all this deployment of capital done. And so there's incredible momentum, I would say.

On the -- call it, the sort of issuer or supply side, definitely see an uptick in companies being more specific around their plans. There are plenty of companies who are very sophisticated in this area with their transition plans. And those on the more sophisticated end don't even feel the need to tag their issuance as sustainable anymore. They feel like their investors understand their story really well.

But there are a lot of companies that will come in the next year or so, particularly with some of the reporting requirements in Europe, for example, with more specifics. And that's good for everyone because it helps us all see how the transition will evolve, what some of the more near-term milestones look like and how that actually might impact, in our case, credit. Maybe from an investment standpoint, how attractive some of these opportunities look like. So it's really moving very, very fast, Joe, and we're paying a lot of attention to this.

Joseph Cass

Absolutely. Manny, lots of people watching and listening to this podcast may have never experienced a recession before in their career. So what words of wisdom would you have for anyone working in finance when the economy is going through a more, let's say, difficult period?

Emmanuel Roman

Well, I think -- let me give you a very positive message. For anyone young, it's a really good thing because your expected return in terms of human capital becomes much higher. You essentially reprice at the same time that a recession happened, your human capital expected return is moving up. And so that is really good.

I think the life cycle in terms of when you hit recession is really, really important. And so the situation you don't want to be into is you are about two years away from retiring and then you have a 2008 situation where you lose your home and you're into a very difficult labor market. But I think for most people on this podcast, it's actually exciting.

It's also a way to get promoted. It's a way to learn new things. And as long as you avoid the deep, frightening recession that I think is quite unlikely, I would see this as a rather positive event. And I think one of the things which never cease to amaze me is how tight the labor market is and how many job opportunities there are. And it's also a way to think about career.

It's also a way to think about happiness. It's also a way to think about family versus work. And all these choices sometimes are brought up by a catalyst and a recession can be one, in a good way and a positive way. And I always say you can't really fight the economic situation. It is what it is. It's a given. What you can do is improve the situation of the company you run, in my case, and then make wise decision in terms of your human capital and what you do with your family.

Joseph Cass

Great. Martina, on the topic of a recession, in more difficult, kind of tough economic times, what responses do we typically see from issuers and investors when considering the importance of credit ratings?

Martina Cheung

Yes. I mean it's been a choppy time, no question, in the last year plus. And on the issuer side, we saw last year a lot of issuers on the sidelines, very reluctant. And obviously, many of them have gone to market in much more favorable conditions in the prior two years, so they were happy to sort of sit and lean on cash balances, et cetera.

We do see though -- I mean, those issuers that go to market more frequently, investment-grade issuers got very comfortable with being nimble and actually going to market in a given day when they felt the volatility was lower. And we've certainly seen more of that through the first few weeks of this year. I would expect for this year, though, to go back to an earlier point that we would see across the spectrum, investment grade and high yield and loans more activity this year, driven by a little bit calmer markets, but also the need to refinance.

On the investor side, I think it's a great opportunity. I mean, Manny highlighted that perfectly in his earlier remarks. It's -- is it -- is this year a great year for fixed income active managers? There's definitely lots of opportunities. Investors are looking at that also looking on the downside risk and asking us for more scenarios, more detailed sector reporting to help them with their analysis. And we've been publishing quite a bit of additional reporting, particularly in the last six to nine months to help with that.

Joseph Cass

Thanks, Martina. So Manny, PIMCO have an impressive advisory board. So it includes Gordon Brown, Ben Bernanke, Mark Carney, Joshua Bolten, just to name a few. So how does this advisory board work with you personally, but also PIMCO as a firm more broadly?

Emmanuel Roman

Yes. And I think in the case of Ben Bernanke, it's more than an advisory work. I mean we got to get the macro framework right. And it's not simple. And we debate a lot. We try to understand what central banks are going to do. We try to understand what the economic cycle is all about. And we try to understand when to take risk and when not to take risk. And one of the things we truly believe is that group thinking is not a good thing.

And so you need outside people to confront your views with, people who have lateral thinking and say, "You know what? You may not be right about this. And this risk, you don't really understand." Look, I haven't met Putin, but Gordon Brown has and Gordon Brown has a lot of view about Russia and has a lot of view about Putin. He may be right, he may not be right. But we have a chance to debate with him potential outcome of the war in Ukraine and I think that's incredibly valuable.

We have a big energy complex. It matters to us. Ben and Mark Carney have run big, large central bank. It is incredibly helpful in terms of understanding, for example, in terms of tapering, in terms of what the reaction function of the Central Bank can be, whether right now, the lower inflation print means that the Fed is going to slow down, the pressure they think inside the Fed, the anchoring.

All of these things, I think you want to be able to debate them and think through what you got wrong. And one framework I have for you is that markets are pretty much efficient. It's hard to make money. So you've got to really be willing to invest a lot to have odds which are above 50-50 because the reality is it's not easy. And unlike equity manager, we beat the benchmark, and we beat it pretty handsomely. But it's a lot of investment to get to some alpha over the business cycle. And the Global Advisory Board is one of them.

But once again, to come back to the point I made before, tech, quant, good PM, a very open debate culture is absolutely essential. And look, the game starts every single year, you know? You may have been good for the past 10 years and all of a sudden, you become overconfident and then things go horribly wrong. And you eat a lot of humble pie in this business.

And so the one other comment I would say is people who run fixed income businesses tend to be miserable. So the glass is always half empty. They always think about what can go wrong. The worst market for us is when you have real bubble where everything goes up, 2021, 2006, 1999 because it just doesn't fit into our framework.

Companies which trade 100x revenue, that is just not something I understand. And that's why you have a VC industry. They're setting the dream and investing into the dream. All we see are storms and tornadoes and cloud on the horizon. That's what happen with fixed income manager.

Joseph Cass

Great. Martina, we're recording this at the end of January 2023 and you've recently returned from the World Economic Forum at Davos. So interested to know what the mood was at the conference and how it was different to previous years.

Martina Cheung

Thanks. I certainly for -- I mean, anybody who walks the street up and down will know that you only get a fraction of what's going on because there's just so much going on. But for the conversations and sessions I was in, I'd characterize it as cautious optimism. I'm still chuckling at Manny's comment that people in fixed income are miserable, but I'd say cautious optimism.

I mean, look, the fundamentals are still very challenging. There's still a huge amount of uncertainty, but I think there was a lot of effort to come together on core topics and lots of really good interactions amongst leaders there. And for us, we use it as a way to continue to sound out our stakeholders, our customers and bring that into our own strategies and how we can be responsive across S&P Global.

Joseph Cass

Thanks, Martina. So Manny, it's now nine years since Bill Gross, co-founder and ex-CIO of PIMCO, left the company. So you joined as CEO a few years later. So how have you tried to develop the working culture at PIMCO during your time thus far as CEO?

Emmanuel Roman

You know, every company goes from a founder-led culture to a more managerial culture where there's pluses and minus versus a founder's culture and the company may or may not do as well as when the founder was around and it's a different style of management. So you look at Apple, there was Steve Jobs, then there wasn't Steve Jobs, then there were Steve Jobs again. And the company is thriving under Tim Cook.

You look at PIMCO, we are incredibly thankful to Bill for having founded the company. And then there's a natural transition. And Dan Ivascyn, the CIO, and I form a great partnership and we have a great friendship, and we run it differently than Bill did, it's much more collegial. We do many more things than we did 20 years ago. The start of investing is much more complicated. It's much more quantitative. And then one day, there will be a new management team who will do things better than we did.

And I truly believe that we are a custodian of a firm and that my job is to leave the company in better shape than I found it and that the transition to a new management is seamless and in the best interest of our clients. And if I can do this, I will have fulfilled my mission and the same goes for Dan. And it's our job to have people who are better, smarter than us and to be in a position to give them the key when the time comes and prepare for this and think through the various option and do it in a harmonious way.

Joseph Cass

Absolutely. Thanks, Manny. So Martina, our research has shown that more women are showing an interest in investing since COVID. Research from others show around 70% of inter-generational wealth transfer will go to women over the next several decades. So given these trends, what could the potential effect be for financial markets?

Martina Cheung

Thanks, Joe. Well, we've been doing research on the role that women play in economic growth for, I think, about five or six years under the title Change Pays. And some of the research that we did just prior to the pandemic showed that women had about 40% of estimated investable assets globally. We also found that after the pandemic, women have actually increased their interest in investing, which I think is very positive for everyone.

And then you see that dynamic evolving further when you take the next several decades into view. And we all know these shifts take a very long time, including the somewhat depressing estimates about when we'll reach the gender -- pay -- or when we'll close the gender pay gap that lots of institutions have looked at.

But I think there's just a lot to be really interested in and excited about as we see more wealth being transferred to women. And it's important for companies to understand how women invest. Our research and others have shown that women tend to invest with their values in mind and so it's a lot of opportunity and a lot of consideration for companies over the next -- I would say, maybe over the long term.

Emmanuel Roman

Yes I think it's a really, really, really important thing and -- in twofold. One of the things I said before is that group thinking is terrible. When I joined this industry in 1987, the industry was very good at hiring white male and reproducing itself. And over the past 35 years, I think you have incredibly successful women. You have a much more diverse senior workforce. You have different views, different opinions, different ethnic origin, different social origin.

And I think that's incredibly positive and something we collectively all need to embrace for the better returns that we can deliver to our investors. My case for diversity is always the same. We'll do a better job for our investors if we are more diverse. No one need to hire another 59-year-old Frenchman. We have one. That's good enough. We need people who think differently.

And I think if you see diversity as an objective in terms of what you do in the best interest of your clients, then a lot of decisions become much easier. And look, PIMCO has -- had done a very good job in some part of it and not a great job in other part. And we're fixing what we haven't done great and no one has the monopoly of excellence here. But I think that's a great point and I think it's incredibly exciting to be able to talk to Martina and have a very senior woman at S&P.

Joseph Cass

Fantastic. Thank you both. So Manny, I actually started my finance career at PIMCO as an assistant in the London office back in 2011, so quite a few years ago now. What kind of guidance would you provide to someone who's looking to just break into the financial industry today?

Emmanuel Roman

Well, first and foremost, there's not only finance, right? There's a lot of exciting career. And I just think you've got to be happy because the reality is, as you know, we spend a long hours in the office. We have an in-office culture and finance may or may not be the right job for you.

I sort of see the interview process as a sorted matching. You got to make sure this is the right company for you. And remember, every time you go and interview for a job, you are interviewing people who are going to offer you a job. Make sure that this is what you want to do. There's no right and wrong answer.

And what do I think is exciting about finance? It is intellectually super stimulating and can withstand your interest over a very long period of time. I wouldn't be interested at all working for Procter & Gamble. I wouldn't be interested working for Disney. They're both pretty good company. And someone else may have a very, very different view in terms of what maximize the utility function.

I find the macro environment incredibly unpredictable. That may be a source of happiness for me, but totally different for someone who very much look like me, but just decide that this is not the right thing to do. Some people love engineering and building stuff. Some are more abstract thinker. I think there's a lot of different decision in life and I think having a sense of introspection and what makes you happy is super important.

And to be clear, I stumbled into finance. It was not the decision that I recommend. I got into finance because I dropped out of a PhD program and that was about the only thing I could do. So I'm hoping that people will make better decisions than I did. But I think there's a lot of exciting career. And a lot of them can also be nonprofit, in helping people and knowing yourself and knowing what makes you happy and fulfill your life, like a Greek philosopher would say, is incredibly important.

Joseph Cass

Absolutely. So Martina, what are you looking forward to both professionally and personally in 2023?

Martina Cheung

Well, a good start is getting 2022 behind and finishing that. I would say -- I think there's just a tremendous opportunity in the market, certainly for the areas that I look at. I'm excited to see how the global economy evolves. You've got a lot of puts and takes with China opening and energy transition really taking off, which gives huge opportunities for emerging markets as well. So on the professional front, I think it's a very, very interesting year and in some ways, we will probably set the standard for years after that as well. On the personal front, it would be trying to get my toddler to sleep on his own would be fantastic. So that's my view.

Joseph Cass

Excellent. Excellent. So Manny, as a West Ham fan, I feel like I have to ask you at least one question about football. So I know that you're quite a big Arsenal fan, so can you tell us about how this came about and more around your love for game?

Emmanuel Roman

So I moved to London in 1991. And by the way, Joe, I hope you sell us Declan Rice, that would make the team better. I came to London in 1991 and I like football a lot and I like the idea of going to a football game. I started to support Arsenal in 1991, 1992 under George Graham. There was no French connection whatsoever, but it was nearly by default because Chelsea was just so terrible.

And so I started to support Arsenal and then we hired Arsène Wenger and for a long time, Arsenal had this French touch for better or for worse. And once you love a team, you're faithful to your team. And so we are on top of the league and my wish for 2023 is Arsenal to win the league and for that, we need to take some points against Man City, which doesn't look easy.

But I love football. I love the community. I have season ticket with my friend, Tidjane Thiam, who ran the Pru in London. We sat every weekend. He had people from all origin, race, gender, kids go to Arsenal. It's safe, it's nice. I mean it's just a fantastic atmosphere. And I absolutely love football. So we nearly won the World Cup. I think we lost to Argentina fair and square, but I have a strong allegiance to Arsenal. And I have an Arsenal shirt in my office.

Joseph Cass

Excellent. Good to know, good to know. So Martina, broad question for you now. What is the best piece of the life advice you've ever received?

Martina Cheung

Yes. Just a quick comment on Manny's comments on Arsenal. I grew up in a football obsessed household and one of the first gifts -- my dad and two of my brothers are lifelong Arsenal fans. One of the first gifts they got when my son was born was an Arsenal kit, like very mini...

Emmanuel Roman

As you should.

Martina Cheung

Very mini, mini arsenal kit, which we passed on to a friend of ours who's also an Arsenal fan for her son. So -- but yes, best advice, honestly, very simple. Look around corners. So I think when you're looking at the runway straight ahead of you, it's -- you can make a lot of assumptions. It's -- when there's divergences, curves, corners, you have to really think carefully and I'd say maybe now more than ever, that's really crucial.

Joseph Cass

Great. And Manny, same kind of broad question for you. What's the best piece of life advice you've ever received?

Emmanuel Roman

I think you need to find people around you and a boss that cares about you and that you could learn from. And the problem with big company is you may get lucky, you may get unlucky. You may be in a place where your boss deeply cares about making you better or you may end up in a place where your boss doesn't care much about making people around him or her better or worse, feels threatened by younger, smarter people.And that is really a probabilistic statement.

And I think that if you are in a company where either your boss is an idiot or doesn't care about you, you've got to change your job in the company. And if you cannot, then you should leave. Because the reality is you need to build your human capital and I think your human capital is built by repetition and by doing the same thing again, but also by someone who gives you advice, cares about you.

And I was very lucky to have really, really good bosses at Goldman Sachs and people who care about me and I have thanked them forever about what I learned from them. And you learn by imitation, you know, positively and negatively. I also saw people who were terrible and I've tried to remember them and make sure that I don't do this and you develop simple heuristic about what to do and what not to do. but you need to have a structure, a meta structure, which encourage you. And to me, that's a big decision process.

But you know, the world changes. I think people should stick to the same company. I think the grass is always greener on the other side. I think people change their job too often. But when I say this to my daughter who -- my two daughters who are 26 and 24, they kind of look at me quizzically like I missed the whole lesson, so...

Joseph Cass

Fantastic. Thanks. Thank you, both two great pieces of advice there. So Manny, the last question of this podcast goes to you. So I usually interview leaders, influential individuals from the world of finance and economics on the podcast. So thinking about everyone you've met throughout your career, who would be the most interesting potential guest you think I should ask to join a future episode of this podcast?

Emmanuel Roman

I would have someone who has nothing to do with finance. And I gave you two examples on two recent podcasts. There is a podcast by Lex Fridman where he had the head of the plasma lab at MIT talking about nuclear, hydrogen, all this new source of energy. I came out of this, my head was spinning. And I think it's really interesting because Martina was talking about energy transition. I mean, you come out of this podcast and think that hydrogen is years and years and years away.

Solar is there. Nuclear is, of course, there. But that's the perfect example of something really interesting in terms of energy transition, but have someone from the academic side. Then I think -- I'm very interested in history and moral philosophy. Have someone talk about it, you know, effective altruism, what we owe to people on the other side of the world, what we owe to the 5 million kids who die every single year of hunger.

And life, when $2 gives you a mosquito nest in West Africa and it's half the price of a Starbucks coffee and whether all of us are -- care enough about what's happening when we're not looking. And you -- if you can get them, I would have Peter Singer. If you cannot, I would get William MacAskill from Oxford.

But what it is to care from a moral standpoint about people who have far less luck, in parenthesis, than us. We've all been very lucky. We were born in a place where we haven't seen wars for the most part and we had a good economic cycle and we got educated and we had parents who care about us and all of these things and not everyone is like this. And so I will very much have that.

Joseph Cass

Fantastic. Yes, great. Really, really interesting suggestions. Well, thank you very much, Manny and Martina, for your time on this session. It's been really -- it's just been totally fascinating to hear your perspectives, your views. For everyone watching and everyone listening, see you next time on Fixed Income in 15.