Listen: Next in Tech | Episode 93: World Cup excitement

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Eric Hanselman

Welcome to Next in Tech, an S&P Global Market Intelligence podcast where the world of emerging tech lives. I'm your host, Eric Hanselman, Chief Analyst for Technology, Media and Telecom at S&P Global Market Intelligence. And today, we are going to be discussing the World Cup, talking a little further about some of the things we've begun at our previous episodes talking about streaming coverage, but digging into that in some more detail with analyst Richard Berndes. Richard, welcome to the podcast.

Richard Berndes

Hi Eric, it's great to be here. I'm looking forward to it. And more importantly, I'm really looking forward to the World Cup.

Eric Hanselman

As is much of the planet. There is so much anticipation, no shortage of hype, no shortage of controversy. But hey, this is World Cup, right?

Richard Berndes

It is. Yes, I think the FIFA President is predicting that it's going to reach 5 billion people with this World Cup, which is a 1 billion improvement on the 2018 one in Russia. So I think that's obviously going to be more than half the planet watching the games.

Eric Hanselman

Wow. Well, and we just had the UN Planet estimate bump up to 8 million, so all that more potential viewers that are out there. I wanted to start off maybe a little bit with just -- with Seth Shafer and Michail [ Shvatsky ] (sic) [Michail Chandakas]. We did talk about some of the streaming aspects. But thinking about some of the rights management and some of that overall view of really what delivering the World Cup from a media perspective actually means. If you're getting half the planet, there's a lot that's involved.

Richard Berndes

Yes. I mean in terms of viewing, in Europe it's -- the viewing is very much dominated by protected rights, which means things like the World Cup and the Olympics have to be shown on free-to-air TV channels, like the BBC and like ZDF in Germany. So these things are going to be available to everyone.

There are some streaming events happening around Europe. But all -- the majority of the games around Europe will be on legacy free-to-air channels, so you can expect huge audiences. I mean, for all those big domestic countries like Germany, England, France, Italy, they're going to be getting something like 80% share of audience for these games. So it's going to be absolutely huge.

Eric Hanselman

Well, and in other parts of the world -- you have North America, you've actually got rights that get bid up in terms of how that game coverage is going to take place, so there's a lot that happens there. We've got specific coverage, some that's on free-to-air, some that's carried on pay TV environments. A lot of variety in terms of how it gets delivered.

Richard Berndes

Yes, I think that's absolutely true. And that's just what makes the World Cup very, very interesting in the way it's presented around the world in these various different ways. I think with a lot of these streaming services, I think the opportunity is going to be around additional content, making the games that will seem more interesting.

And adding that added value to create that long tail around the games themselves and also leading up to the games, there's -- around the stream, there's a quite opportunity for producing some really interesting content outside the live games.

Eric Hanselman

Everything that's all about the teams, all about the journey, all about the venues.

Richard Berndes

Absolutely. And it's -- and the fan experience. I think a lot of people would tap into fan experience on the ground, which brings in that sort of -- which just tracks that sort of youth audience as well, which is very, very valuable to advertisers. So I just think it's such a big event, and it will just -- it will just be playing on so many different platforms.

Eric Hanselman

Well, and there's so much to talk about in fan experience because this is such a new thing. Qatar is -- this is really the first major international event that Qatar has hosted. They've had to build most of the stadiums. They are bringing in cruise ships for hotel rooms, they're ferrying in people from neighboring countries around the Gulf, just simply because they don't have the capacity. There's going to be a lot that's happening.

Richard Berndes

Absolutely. How the infrastructure is going to cope with all these people is going to be interesting to see. I'm sure given the exposure that Qatar is going to get with this event, they're going to try and put on a good show. But as you say, it's such a unique time of the year to have this event. It's such a unique country hosting it. It's going to be interesting how this plays out, but I'm sure they're going to make it work.

Eric Hanselman

Well, time of year, it's that interesting. Normally, the World Cup is held over the summer. And of course, in Qatar in the summer it would be a little on the warm side, or at least to play soccer in that sort of an environment. But there's a lot of technology that they're bringing to bear to be able to address that.

Now of course, there is the regular soccer season disruptions that are taking place, which is part of the controversy. But there's a lot of tech that's being brought to bear to not only address some of the environmental pieces, but actually, the play of the game itself. We've got a brand-new ball which, hey, a lot of our IoT-focused listeners will probably be interested in because the ball itself is full of sensors, right?

Richard Berndes

Yes, absolutely. I mean going back to your earlier point, Eric, in terms of stadium temperature control, as you sort of touched on, I mean, if you were playing this in the summer, it's going to be sort of 50, 60 degrees in Qatar, which is totally unplayable. I mean the new stadiums that they've built, I think, I believe there are 7 built specifically for the World Cup.

And they've built in some really sort of interesting, sort of, air conditioning facilities, that way they can recycle the water as well. So basically, it's going to be sort of informative for the people watching the game and the footballers. So during -- in the stadium, I believe they're going to be keeping the temperature between 24 and 28 degrees.

And that's going to make it sort of much more playable. And I believe there's air conditioners that's going to be filtered through the stand itself, up through the stands where the spectators are on to the pitch. And I think as -- we're right in saying that the structures themselves are designed so they can actually repel hot air, which obviously could be very, very important within this environment.

And also to try and prevent some of that arrival of solar radiation. Because I think they are made of -- if I pronounce this correctly, polytetrafluoroethylene, I'm sorry for that. But yes, as I said, in terms of the stadiums themselves, they have been built specifically to make it a comfortable experience for the players.

Eric Hanselman

Well, is that -- that's the material they're using to go cover the stadiums?

Richard Berndes

I believe so, yes, on the outside just to repel the heat.

Eric Hanselman

Well, I guess the thing we should also be clear on is that the stadiums are all open air, which again in a footballing tradition, that's definitely what you want. But of course, you've got to be able to cool the stadium itself, as you're identifying air circulation. They've got -- I think there's ducting under the seats, in the stadium itself for all the spectators.

They've got jets out on the pitch itself, so they'll be blowing cool air out there. But talking about -- just for North Americans, that conversion at 20 degrees, we're talking about 68 degrees Fahrenheit, so keeping it relatively cool on the pitch for the players. And also, of course, for the turf and for the grass itself because, of course, you don't want to be scorching the turf in that Qatari sun.

Richard Berndes

No. I think that a lot of these stadiums now, around the world, they've -- it's not pure grass that you might have at home. It's a sort of an artificial weave of real grass and artificial elements to make the pitch hold up. So they probably built that into the stadiums as well.

I mean, in this sort of environment, in the Brazil World Cup in 2014, the humidity was such that we're taking water breaks during the game if it led to certain periods. So it's not an unusual thing. But as I said, the heat in Qatar, it's -- these stadiums are going to have been built for purpose. So I'm not expecting anyone to be sort of in on this as I saw.

Eric Hanselman

Well, we'll keep our fingers crossed and hope all goes well. Certainly, it sounds like they're accounting for this upfront in terms of the expectations about what they're building in. But I thought we had a chance to talk beforehand, and we're talking about stadiums and the pitch itself and the nature of it.

You've mentioned that a lot of flexibility in terms of managing the pitch is something that we're seeing in modern stadiums. And in fact, it sounds like in your home stadium, which has just gotten a brand-new stadium, there's some interesting technology rolled into that.

Richard Berndes

Absolutely. I'm a big Tottenham Hotspur fan, who play in the Premier League. And the England Captain, Harry Kane, plays with Tottenham Hotspur. And they've -- I think 2 years ago, they've opened a GBP 2 billion new stadium. And the interesting thing about the stadium is it's actually multifunctional. So they have the grass soccer pitch, which -- it's on 3 trays and it splits into 3 sections.

And on wheels, it rolls actually under the main stand of the stadium, which holds nearly 20,000 people. So these 3 trays roll under the main stand. And what comes up from underneath this is an NFL football pitch, which is pretty -- the actual process takes 25 minutes to get the soccer pitch out and the NFL thing up.

Now Spurs have a relationship with the NFL, a 10-year contract of 2 weekends a year, [ the NFL have 2 to ] come and play at Tottenham Hotspur. So it's an amazing thing to see this. And the whole stadium itself has unique things like beer glasses that fill from the bottom up. It's incredible experience to watch these things happen.

Eric Hanselman

So we've got some significant technology making this happen. So -- but in the Spur's stadium, you're actually rolling out the grass and bringing in AstroTurf to be able to bring that up so that you could host an NFL game. Presumably it's a surface that's also durable enough to handle other events as well.

Richard Berndes

Yes. I think last weekend, there was a rugby match between New Zealand and the Barbarians, and I think that was played on the grass pitch. But outside the NFL and rugby, it actually holds concerts as well. So we've -- recently, we've had Guns N' Roses play there and Lady Gaga all in the last couple of months.

So it's a multifaceted stadium. It also holds world championship boxing as well. The upcoming Tyson Fury fight is going to be held at the Tottenham Hotspur stadium as well. And that thing, the AstroTurf's pitch will come up, the boxing ring in the middle and the seats around it.

So it's -- from a business point of view, it's an interesting idea because it makes it multipurpose that can be used outside the soccer season. So it generates so much revenue for the club, which all can be back into the stadium and the club itself.

Eric Hanselman

Because otherwise, you'd have to do something dramatic to go protect the pitch, you might damage it in some way. You couldn't support something as massive as a boxing ring and all the seats that are associated with it. It sounds like this is really a -- that shift from purpose-built facilities to now being able to have a facility that's multi-mode and leveraging the technology, to be able to transition between all the various uses and still be able to deliver a premier experience at each of these different levels.

Richard Berndes

Absolutely. I mean the grass pitch itself is interesting. When the grass pitch, which is obviously growing, so it was a living, breathing thing, it can actually stay underground for 10 days until it has to come out again. Because they've got like artificial lights, LEDs and cooling and irrigation systems built under the stadium to keep the grass in good shape. So it's just -- it can be under there for 10 days before it comes out again.

Eric Hanselman

Wow, it's basically like a mini-subterranean greenhouse to keep it all growing. That is wild.

Richard Berndes

Yes. I think that Daniel Levy, who is the Owner/Chairman of Tottenham Hotspur, he's gone on record to say what he'd like to do is hold a Premier League game at lunchtime and then change it to hold an NFL game in the evening. That's his dream, apparently.

Eric Hanselman

Wow. If you think about what you could potentially do, just in the transition, in the stadium, and of course NFL games, concerts, you could have the stadium going 7 by 24, 365, just simply spinning events as fast as you can move all of their entourages in and out.

Richard Berndes

Yes, absolutely. It makes perfect business sense really, to have one of these things that can -- it can do so much more than, say, 30 soccer games a year.

Eric Hanselman

Well, I think the Qatari stadiums are focused specifically on soccer and to be able to go manage those games. But there's a lot of technology that's being premiered at the World Cup as well. I mentioned the ball. Again, being able to track where the ball is going. There are a bunch of different pieces that, that's going to be able to accomplish.

Richard Berndes

Absolutely. I think the big thing behind the ball thing is they're introducing in this World Cup semi-automated offside. And for those people who are not aware of soccer, you can be offside if you're ahead -- too far ahead of the play, in simple terms.

It's a very controversial -- it used to be just a man with a flag who looked along the line and called it. They've now introduced video-assisted referees around the world. But this new thing, it's actually going to be semiautomatic.

So there's going to be -- I think it's 12 cameras mounted on the roof of a stadium that's going to track 29 individual data points of each individual player, around 50 times a second, and it calculates where they are in the pitch. And when the ball is played, that -- these data points can judge whether the player is ahead of the play too far and will be technically offside and they stop the play.

So this is the, sort of the -- the interesting thing about it is trying to help use science to support the officials and make the game better. Now it's not without its controversies, because sometimes with the current VAR system that's used around the world, a player can be off by his toenail.

Now in the spirit of the game, is that really, really offside? But I suppose technically he is, because it's -- his toenail is in front of the play. But is that really in the spirit of the game? That's where a lot of this technology is going.

It's great, and it was initially introduced for goal line technology. So if the ball goes to -- has it gone over the line to score a goal essentially? Well, there's been some mistakes. So it's great, and this is new, new technology, which is fantastic. But sometimes within the spirit of the game, would that actually be interfering with the game, if someone's toenail was offside.

Eric Hanselman

Well, that's that question. I mean, because this has been something that, as with most sports, there's a human element. And you've got the referee who is tracking play, who's keeping track of what's going on in the game, and it's up to the judgment of the referee to be able to make that call.

Whether or not that happens to be offside, whether or not the goal was actually scored, whether or not a player was out of bounds, balls and strikes in baseball, lots of different things. And to get rid of the egregious human errors was really, I guess, the goal. But of course, that starts to bring tech in and maybe take out some of the nuances in the game.

Richard Berndes

Well, speaking as a soccer fan, now you don't know whether to celebrate a goal or not. That the whole elation of this wonderful moment where your team scored a goal in the last minute to win a trophy or sort of like gain 3 valuable points to win a title, you really don't know whether you can celebrate or not. And so it becomes very muted, and it takes all of that...

Eric Hanselman

Because -- yes, there's that pause of while the video review is taking place, while they're assessing what's actually happened. And I guess maybe the promise of having an instrumented ball is that you'll be able to tell much more instantaneously.

Richard Berndes

Yes.

Eric Hanselman

But I guess we'll have to see how it actually gets played within the game, whether or not there's actually a separate review cycle. It's -- you mentioned the NFL, there are things that we're looking at video review of the NFL. There are a lot of different pieces that are there.

And for all of them, there's that question of does it break the rhythm of play? Does it hold fans off from being able to celebrate, it's -- how does that integrate? And as we're doing with a lot of assessments of tech, how is the technology actually making that decision, which is still going to be something that we're going to have to see quite literally how it plays out.

Richard Berndes

Yes. I mean -- I think with the World Cup, what's going to be another improvement in this -- the video system they're using within soccer is with all this technology they're using, with the cameras and within the ball, which is fed through to match officials and video-review people, I think it's supposed to be a lot more instantaneous.

But also it would use this technology to create a video snapshot or video -- a short video play, which will then play in the stadium to show the fans what the issue was, which is an interesting development from my point of view. Because at the moment, you don't get that, you don't get -- all you get on the screen is VAR review. And you just stand and wait and wait and wait, and then it comes up if it's offside or not.

Eric Hanselman

So you get that moment to which the fans are trying to figure out what's going on, what's...

Richard Berndes

Yes, so it's no communication. And I know sometimes these video reviews have taken up to 3 minutes for a decision to be made. And it doesn't sound like a lot, but that's a lot within a game of soccer, which isn't used to breaks.

Eric Hanselman

Right. In a game in which you expect that play to continue to flow, and -- I mean you're going to get a break at halftime for beer commercials. But it's not like NFL in which after most plays, you may, in fact, get a break.

Richard Berndes

Yes. It's like -- most sports, the NFL, basketball, rugby, tennis, there's natural breaks in the play where these things can be assessed. The difference with soccer is you kick off and you play for 45 minutes without a break. The ball might go up for a throw-in or there might be a foul or you have a free kick.

But essentially, it just plays for 45 minutes without a break. And that's where it slightly jars, fitting into the natural flow of the game. Now speaking as a fan is if a decision goes for you and the goal disallowed, it's fantastic.

But I think that's where it sits a little bit uncomfortably with it. But I'm assuming within 10 years, people will get used to this -- like any change, a little bit used to it. But it certainly seems that the system they're bringing in for the World Cup, sharing the technology and what the officials are seeing with the fans, I think, will help.

Eric Hanselman

Well, we can hope. And actually, this episode is going to go out just after the World Cup has kicked off. So I think some of our listeners will have already had a little bit of experience as to how well this is working out. But hopefully, this gives them some insights into what's going on behind the scenes in terms of where this all fits. But yes, I guess we can hope for a good game play and a good competition.

Richard Berndes

Absolutely. And I think it will be. I mean, there's some very interesting matchups. And there's -- all the big teams are there and all the teams with the big players are going to be there. So I'm expecting it to see some really good games. And hopefully, the technology will make the games better and not make them worse, in my opinion. But yes, I'm expecting it to be a great World Cup.

Eric Hanselman

Well, we're hoping so. And in fact, actually, we're going to go out the day after the England-USA match. So we'll -- I don't know if we want to lead to predictions for where that's going to go, but we'll have to see where that plays out.

Richard Berndes

Yes. No. Again, as all American sports are, Americans, they tend to -- if they want to do something, they get better and better and better till they got it. I mean the American women's soccer team is the best in the world and have won things for years and years and years. So there's obviously some pedigree there. And yes, there's more and more American players playing overseas.

There's an American who plays for Chelsea in the Premier League. So there's some talent there. I think it's probably -- it's building up that experience of tournaments which will only come with time. But yes, I'm expecting it to be an interesting game. I expect and are hoping that we'll win, but personally I can't see them winning the World Cup.

Eric Hanselman

Well, it's the American men are continuing to improve, as you said.

Richard Berndes

Yes, yes.

Eric Hanselman

And we'll see how far they get. I guess we can keep our figures crossed. They have not been the powerhouse that the American women have been although the American women have been struggling a little bit as the rest of the world is starting to catch up, so...

Richard Berndes

Yes.

Eric Hanselman

We'll see. But that's -- the American women's game is going to be in New Zealand in July. So we'll have to see whether or not the next stage -- or the Women's World Cup will be in New Zealand in July. We'll have to see whether or not a lot of this technology makes it to New Zealand and where -- what that actually happens to bring.

Richard Berndes

Definitely. I think you can only see this being enhanced and getting better. And the more it's used within tournaments, the more people will accept it and see the benefits and why it's there. And the women's game itself is just -- is getting better and better and it's getting more and more popular around the world.

Within Europe, some of the women's game for the European championships last summer was close to the same viewing figures for the men's game. So it's by no means a second-degree sport. I think women's -- the women's football is amazing.

Eric Hanselman

Well, we'll have to see what happens in the summer. And you mentioned some of the transitions in players and games of -- from your home club of -- you've got actually Harry Kane with NFL aspirations who might, in his senior years, might head over this way.

Richard Berndes

Yes, Harry Kane's a massive NFL fan. He's actually got -- he's got a Labrador dog who is named Brady, after Tom Brady, well that's his favorite player.

Eric Hanselman

Well, being a Bostonian, I could appreciate the tribute.

Richard Berndes

Yes. But he was interviewed by Newsweek in 2019. And he actually was quoted saying "I love NFL, and I can seriously see myself becoming an NFL kicker." So he definitely have aspirations to play in the NFL, which will be an amazing thing to see.

Eric Hanselman

Well, and there's a long history of British players heading to the U.S. to play in major league soccer, but this would be a really interesting transition. So I guess we'll have to see how the England captain does and whether or not he sets his sights across the Atlantic.

Richard Berndes

Well, if he does go, I'll be watching him and cheering him all the way.

Eric Hanselman

Good stuff. Well, this has been great. Richard, thank you very much for all these perspectives. We will be in the thick of World Cup competition by the time this episode airs. So we'll hopefully get a view into how this technology is all working out, see how the stadiums are going and hopefully get a lot of great game play.

Richard Berndes

Great. It's been great talking to you, Eric. Thanks for having me on the show.

Eric Hanselman

Thank you. And thanks to our audience for staying with us. That is it for this episode of Next in Tech. I want to thank our production team, including Caroline Wright and Ethan Zimman on the marketing and events teams; and our studio lead, Kyle Cangialosi.

I hope you'll join us for our next episode where we're going to be getting into the debate about cloud versus data center with returning guests to Melanie Posey and Dan Thompson. I hope you'll join us then, because there is always something Next in Tech.