Watch: Developing an Inclusive Internship Program

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SHEILA BRATHWAITE

Welcome to Social Intelligence. I'm Sheila Brathwaite, Head of Diversity Content at S&P Global. Due to interest from investors and corporations, our understanding of social issues and sustainable investing has evolved. Today, we'd like to discuss how you, our customers, and stakeholders can develop an inclusive internship program.

This past summer, we partnered with 10,000 Black Interns, a U.K.-based program, offering 10,000 internships over 5 years across 24 sectors involving more than 700 companies. I am so pleased to introduce you to the following panelists:

Oma Léger is a graduate of the University of Roehampton in the U.K. She began a career recruitment in 2009 at State Street Bank before moving on to CEB, which is now Gartner. Oma works in the S&P Global Commodity Insights division as a recruiting lead for the European, Middle East and Africa regions, overseeing recruiting activities across the business and managing a team of dedicated recruiters.

Olayinka Fadahunsi is Global Head of Communications for S&P Global, managing a team of communicators responsible for media relations, internal and employee engagement, corporate reputation and strategic executive engagement. He was previously Head of External Communications for S&P Global Ratings and has held a variety of leadership roles at Deutsche Bank and the New York State Common Retirement Fund. Ola is a graduate of the City University of New York and a former journalist and media entrepreneur.

And from the 10,000 Black Internship program, Co-Founder, Dawid Konotey-Ahulu. Dawid is a qualified barrister that switched careers to become an investment banker, where he spent 16 years working at NatWest Capital Markets and Merrill Lynch, where he was responsible for the Strategic Solutions Group in the U.K. and Scandinavia.

In August 2020, Dawid cofounded 100 Black Interns, an initiative to find 100 asset management internships during the summer of 2021 for black undergraduates. This proved tremendously successful as 200 firms offered 500 internships. In October 2020, the co-founders expanded the program to 10,000 black interns. Aside from Dawid's work changing the world, he currently sits on the Prime Minister's Business Council, which brings together industry leaders to advise on delivering economic growth and leveling up in the U.K. He is also on the Lord Mayor's Finance for Impact Advisory Board. Thank you again, Oma, Ola and Dawid.

SHEILA BRATHWAITE

Why do internships matter? Oma, can you start it off?

OMA LEGER

Of course. Thank you so much for inviting me. Super excited to be here today. It's a really great question, like why do internships matter? And if you think about it, in today's world, everything has shifted, and just having a degree and a good degree at that, is no longer enough to secure that all-important graduate job. So internships have become an essential way to help candidates make themselves stand out. So it can really help them gain life exposure, grow their knowledge and determine if they're even in the right career field moving forward.

So the way I see it is internships could give you the exposure, the challenges of the work environment. You'll be able to use this to talk to future interviewers, show employers that you'll be a good fit for their company. It can help you demonstrate your commitment and your capabilities to an employer. It highlights your kind of energy and passion for the organization or for the sector that you want to go into. It really shows your drive to be able to kind of acquire experience outside of university. And at the same time, it also will help candidates understand their capabilities, have a greater understanding of their strengths and their weaknesses.

And then to add to that as well, it's a really great learning curve because for students, they can really learn how to make connections in the professional world, how to network, and then they get the opportunity to meet new people. So I think internships are a great opportunity for students and should be something that they should look to do as much as possible.

SHEILA BRATHWAITE

Absolutely. Dawid? Ola?

DAWID KONOTEY-AHULU

I was just going to say that one thing that we found at 10,000 last year when we did this within the asset management industry was that if you put that you have an internship on your CV, you may not have much else on there. But if you put the internship piece on there and then you put some of the things that you've been working on, you find that you then basically -- you come up in all the search engines. And so you suddenly get all these recruitment firms reaching out to you and saying, would you like a job here, would like a job there, that kind of thing. So actually, simply doing an internship just means that you show up in the search engines in a way that you wouldn't otherwise.

Let's say you've been working on ESG or you're working on data sorting, whatever you did. You put it in there and suddenly, boom, the search engines just pick it up. And we saw that happen with a whole ton of the people that we had coming through. We didn't necessarily get a job at the end of the internship, but then they showed up in these search engines and then they get a whole bunch of job opportunities that came their way. So it was a big deal.

SHEILA BRATHWAITE

Brilliant, brilliant.

OLAYINKA FADAHUNSI

That's really interesting because it contrasts a little bit with my experience just because it's been quite some time since I had an internship and started my career. But I will tell you that even though it was an analog situation, it wasn't quite digital, and my resume didn't come up in search engines that really didn't exist at that time. I think it gives you the same sort of credibility that Dawid is talking about because when I got my first job, it was really important to be able to say I had office experience. I had real-life interactive experience with senior executives, with real-life situations in my career field. And I just don't think that even with a good degree, as Oma said, that's something that you can duplicate anywhere else. You really need to -- even at the beginning of your career, be able to demonstrate that you've had that sort of experience.

So that's my big reason for thinking that internship's a really important part of developing yourself to be attractive to employers.

SHEILA BRATHWAITE

So aside from Ola, Who else here had an internship during college? I didn't.

OMA LEGER

Yes, I did it.

DAWID KONOTEY-AHULU

I don't know. I wish I had, but I did not, I'm afraid, no back in the day.

OMA LEGER

Yes, agreed.

DAWID KONOTEY-AHULU

But for me, it was so long ago, I didn't even know if they had internships back then.

OLAYINKA FADAHUNSI

Well, I will tell you, Dawid that's -- it's interesting. That's very -- it's relatively similar to my experience because it wasn't really a formal internship. I'd say I had a series of them. And it was only because I had professors, particularly in journalism, that was my major, who were very passionate about developing black talent, looking for opportunities for kids who are interested in that field to learn something practical.

So it wasn't that I had sort of a formalized experience, but I wrote for several magazines in college. I did office work, mostly independent ones, around New York, but in a variety of areas. And that was really important to me, too, because I sort of got to understand what it was that I might want to do after college. I did business and finance. I did music and culture. I did sort of local events and politics. And that was just really great to have all that sort of variety. But it wasn't such a formalized program as you'd have now, but it was really -- I just have to thank the people who are dedicated enough to say, we've got some kids here who might benefit from being around professionals.

SHEILA BRATHWAITE

So Ola, was that internship, or any of those internships, paid?

OLAYINKA FADAHUNSI

Yes. This is interesting because I think it touches on the point we were just discussing as well. Some were. I worked with the Black Enterprise, as I said. That was a paid position that led into sort of more freelance work. but many weren't. My initial internships were, as I say, with small kind of self-published magazines that I happen to find in and around New York City, and I wrote them letters at the time. No e-mails, again. I'd handwrite and say, "I'm really interested in learning more about journalism and being a writer. Can I come by your office. Can I do whatever?" And not everybody was interested, but some were.

I'll also tell you that I tried to go for what I knew were sort of more formal internships, particularly with PBS, such as the public broadcasting service in the United States. And I was not picked for that one. But that was okay. I sort of knew that I had enough drive, and I had enough experience with some of these other incentives to be able to say, you know what, this is something really useful for me. And at the end of my time in college, it's something that's going to help me get in the door elsewhere.

SHEILA BRATHWAITE

Brilliant, brilliant. Hey, Oma, why do you think it's important to have a program just for black interns?

OMA LEGER

I think it's so important to have initiatives like this. I mean, when I heard about the 10,000 Black Interns, I was so excited and I was like, we have to be part of this. I mean, it really helps address the underrepresentation of black students in British business. Like we just see there's so much of it and there's so much more that can be done. And by offering these initiatives, we are contributing as an organization, and we are helping to create future black business leaders, which I am so excited about.

We've got our interns right now that are getting job offers for permanent opportunities, and it thrills me because I know that they're going to contribute to the growth of S&P Global. And we're making a difference. We're seeing and changing how young black people perceive their futures and their careers and their opportunities in business. And also, we're changing how they perceive because they're getting the opportunity to work for an organization and realize the value that they can add. And I just think these types of programs, we're opening the door for future generations, and it's a real game changer. So I love it, and I'm all about it.

SHEILA BRATHWAITE

Excellent. Excellent. Dawid, would you like to talk about the goal of the 10,000 Black Intern program?

DAWID KONOTEY-AHULU

Yes. So the idea behind it is that we are taking literally 10,000 and the number may be even bigger than that. But over the next 5 years -- I mean, 10,000 is a big number, and we are introducing them into -- actually, it's growing from 24. I think we said 24. It's actually now 30 different industries. So you name it, every sector is represented. And we're going to take 10,000 talented, young, black heritage graduates and undergraduates and put them into these roles -- front office roles, so very often with an internship. It can happen that you end up just kind of languishing by the photocopier or just kind of going and collecting sandwiches for the big beasts. But this is not it. This is basically getting you real jobs or real internships, which will then allow the firm to see just how good you really are and allow you to get into firms that you never thought you could get into.

We're hearing stories about it all the time, people just saying, I just never thought that I would get into this role. Or people going into a role that maybe it wasn't their first choice, but they're like, actually, I love it. I had no idea. I thought I wanted to do this, but now I've ended up being on another role, and I'm loving it, and they love me and the team is great. So it's fine if you have 1 or 2 internships and people who are making a success of this. But actually, when you got 10,000, it's a complete game changer. It suddenly becomes the norm. It's normal. And the idea is that over the next 3 to 4, 5 years, this just becomes normal, and you're just going to see people of black heritage just showing up everywhere and being amazing. And so as that starts -- it's already happening, but over the next 5 years, you're going to have that. And then we're going to have them just move through the organization and just become a part of the fabric.

SHEILA BRATHWAITE

Excellent. So have you experienced any unexpected outcomes in the program?

DAWID KONOTEY-AHULU

Yes. I think I haven't really appreciate just how big a deal this program is for so many young people. We had an event recently. In fact, Sheila, I met you there, we were hanging out at the events at the Landmark Hotel here in London. And towards the end, I mean, I've been talking to so many people, like 11:00 in the evening, and I had to catch my train, like the last train, and this guy came up to me, he said, "I just have to tell you my story."

And I said, "Okay, sure. Tell me your story." And I was kind of like thinking, "I really got to catch my train." But there's something about this guy, and he said, "I think this program saved my life." And I kind of said, "Okay, that's a big thing to say. That's a big deal." And I said, "What do you mean?" He said, "Well, let me tell you my story," which was that he was in Leeds in the north of England. He was in his degree. He was heading for a first-class degree, doing really well, but he couldn't get any interviews.

He sent all these applications, he wasn't hearing anything back. And so he called his father and he said, "Dad, look, I'm just feeling -- I just don't think there's any point because I'm working so hard and I'm not hearing anything back on these applications. I'm just -- I don't think I can do this anymore. I mean I'm just going to quit."

He said like, "No, no, you can't quit." It's like you're at the finish line." He said, "Dad", -- his mental health was suffering, he was really struggling. He said it was like freezing cold, it was raining, it was February. It was like -- it was just terrible.

Anyway, he was walking along the street just really at an all-time low, really just wondering, just contemplating is there any point, is there any meaning in life at all? And then his phone rang and it was this guy who said, "Look, there's this program, 10,000 Back Interns. Maybe you should apply to it to, see if something comes up."

So he went home -- and by the way, the guy said, by the way, it closes tonight at like midnight. This was like 10 in the evening. So he has 2 hours. So he goes home. He didn't think there was any point, but he applied. And he just got it in time, like 5 to midnight he gets in, he gets his application in. And he said, "I got 4 great interviews back." And I think he ended up -- he got an interview from Morgan Stanley, Goldman, HSBC, and I think Legal & General. He said, "I'm at Legal & General. I'm loving it. The team is great. I feel like this is where I'm supposed to be." And he said, "I got to say, I honestly think you saved my life." And he kind of got a bit choked up, and I was a bit choked up, and the whole thing was just incredible.

I think if you say, did we expect that? I think, honestly, no. I mean we thought we were doing something that was going to make a difference, but I don't think we anticipated that kind of story. And by the way, Sheila, that happens all the time. These stories are just coming up all the time, people who're just like, I wasn't getting anywhere, and now it's game changing me. Great and amazing. So yes, I would say it's had a bigger effect, a more profound effect, a bigger impact than I think we realized.

SHEILA BRATHWAITE

And you know what, that's a movement.

DAWID KONOTEY-AHULU

I think it is. Yes. Yes, it's a movement for change. Exactly. And movements often start in a way that -- it's right, you're right. They start with very small things that make a big difference. I really love Malcolm Gladwell's book, The Tipping Point, and it's all about how little things can make a big difference. And I think this is an example of that.

It's a little thing that we started out with, just calling up a few CEOs and saying, would you be prepared to give a young, black undergraduate an internship for 6 weeks. Just pay them the living wage. And they said, "Yes." And it's a little thing, but actually, it's making a really big difference. So yes, no, you're right. I think it's [ a movement ], yes.

SHEILA BRATHWAITE

It's brilliant. And speaking of the little things. Beyond the practical skills picked up on the job, what soft skills do you hope that participants learn in this program? And Oma, that could be you, Dawid, Ola?

OMA LEGER

I'll go. I mean from my perspective, and obviously, the interns will come in and they'll pick up on practical skills and they learn about things on the job. But I think the soft skills that I really hope that the interns can pick up on, first and foremost, is communication skills.

We know that this is essential for them to have that both in their professional and their personal life. And being in an internship, that's something that will definitely be something that they should pick up. Also teamwork and collaboration, learning to be part of the team in a professional setting, learning to be part of the fabric, that's definitely something that we want our interns to learn about. And then at the same time, in terms of helping them balance their work and tasks and their own personal life, they should learn about time management and multitasking. So these are going to be key things that we would love for our interns to actually pick up as well.

Critical thinking, really good. Learning new ways to handle and address challenges. This is something that they can do in their roles, but also take forward in their future lives as well. Assertiveness, being able to push back, but with respect, that's going to be a key thing for interns as they grow and develop as adults into the professional environment. And then accountability. I think this is going to be a key thing because they're learning to be accountable for the work that they produce, for their growth, for their own journey, and also how they represent themselves as a brand or any company that they work for. I think it's so important that they utilize common courtesy and also professionalism as well, which is all going to stand them in good speed as an intern. And those are the types of soft skills I would expect the intends to pick up moving forward.

SHEILA BRATHWAITE

Excellent. You talk about communication skills. There's a concept called code switching in which black people learn to speak a more formal way in certain settings, sometimes being less like themselves, more like the dominant cultural norms. Are you concerned at all that the interns from 10,000 Black Interns or any intern might be learning to code switch. Ola?

OLAYINKA FADAHUNSI

Yes, I'm happy to take this one because I think it's such a theme and a topic that we confirm all the time and in the workplace as black people, often being asked to speak in a certain way or conform to certain social norms. And I think it's a very fine line. So I'm really interested in hearing from the other panelists about this as well.

I will tell you the -- my own personal experience is that very often, people think that I speak in an overly formal way either in the office or in person. It's just a part of my background. I grew up in many different places. I have an accent that's not that easy to place for some. I have obviously an unusual last name in the U.S. I'm Nigerian by birth. So I think that there's a certain amount of what we might call code switching that is just normal. Very often when you come from different backgrounds, so you have -- you just have a variety of life experience that you're trying to boil down into some conversations.

But I think it is really important, especially for young black people, to know that authenticity is the first and foremost quality that really helps you progress in your career. You want to be an authentic person. You don't have to pretend to be somebody else. You don't have to speak with a particular accent or wear a bit of a mask. It's really important to be able to present yourself assertively, as Oma said.

Now that being said, there's a difference between that and being unprofessional. I think everybody in a workplace is expected to speak in a professional manner, approach their colleagues in the right way. Some of those things that Oma was just describing, the soft skills, I think, are really important in the office setting. So while I do have concerns that people feel like they may be forced to code switch, it is really important to balance that authenticity and being true to yourself with also recognizing what it means to be a professional in any office setting for anyone.

SHEILA BRATHWAITE

Agreed. Dawid?

DAWID KONOTEY-AHULU

Yes. Yes, let me jump in on this one. I think if there's 2 sides to this coin, I think, there's the perspective from the intern, which is -- I really think that it's important that as an intern, you show up and you shouldn't have additional pressure to think you have to speak a certain way. If you speak a certain way, and then that should be completely fine. Just like if you turn up with a Welsh accent, you shouldn't have to think, well, I can't speak with a Welsh accent or with a Scottish accent, or with a regional accent. I need to speak with a London accent. Nobody really thinks like that, right? And it should be the same that if you are -- or black heritage and you speak a certain way, that should be completely accepted and you should feel very comfortable speaking like that.

Having said that, I think exactly like Ola I said, all of us speak one way when we're at home. When I'm in Accra, Ghana where I grew up, I speak a certain way that I wouldn't speak like that now. If I spoke that here, you wouldn't understand what I was saying, right? So I have -- so all of us kind of moderate and modulate how we speak depending on where we are. So there's a little bit of that, which is just normal.

But I think the other side of this whole coin is employers need to understand that just because someone looks different and speaks differently, then you shouldn't judge that much. It's something that we all do is you judge someone by the way they speak and the way they look. And I think we have to learn as employers to not do that. And that's as much -- it's as much for employers to learn as it is for interns to understand that they could show up and be completely authentic.

So this -- the way I like to think about this whole thing about internships and giving internships is that this is like a dinner party guest list. It's like -- it's about thinking about who do we want to have for dinner this weekend? And maybe you talk to your other half and you're like, who should we invite to dinner? And your other half is like, well, why don't we invite the Thompsons? You say, well, we always invite the Thompsons. That's -- why don't we do something a little different? Yes, I like the Thompsons. They're nice and easy. So easy, very relaxed, they will laugh about jokes, it's all good. The point is you always invite the Thompson. And it's the same when we're hiring people. We just invite -- we just hire the same people because it's nice and easy. And actually, what we should be doing is thinking about the guest list and how we change it.

But when you change up that guest list, then you're going to get people who don't look like you, don't sound like you, have a different background than you. And that's what this is about, and you have to keep that in mind. Just because people don't sound like you, it doesn't mean that somehow they're not as capable as the people that you would normally hire. In some ways, they're going to be even more capable, just because they don't sound like , do we normally hire, it doesn't mean they're not as capable. So I think there's a lot of -- in this whole piece. In this ecosystem, there's a lot of changing up of minds and adapting of thinking that needs to happen.

SHEILA BRATHWAITE

I like what you said about people -- your invitation list for dinner. So with that in mind, why would a company want to hire Black interns? I would imagine there's a correlation with the dinner table analogy and corporations, but can you expound on that?

DAWID KONOTEY-AHULU

Look, I just think that if you look at our industry, so I'm thinking about now asset management, which is where I kind of work, we've always had this issue, which is out of 3,000 people who manage money, just 12, 1-2, are of black heritage, which is crazy, right? 12 out of 3,000. And so this is really just about redressing a serious issue of underrepresentation and instead of 12, the number should be -- I don't know what it should be, right, but it should be in the hundreds, certainly. And that's what this is about.

So it's not fair to say about whether you should hire someone who's black and there's a specific reason that you've got to go and hire someone is black necessarily. This is about addressing an underrepresentation issue. But having said that, one of the things that we find is that there is a grit and a resilience about a lot of this community, which, as an organization, you want, right?

I was talking to someone the other day. And that story was just incredible. And by the way, this story often gets repeated. But he grew up in a house where I think it was just him and his mom and his siblings. So he's dad wasn't there, which meant that his mother was working the whole time, which meant effectively that he had to take care of his siblings before he went to school. Money was super tight. He had to work weekends as well alongside his school work. There was nobody to give him extra tuition. And at the end of it all, he still ended up going to university and getting a good degree. Now that guy has shown incredible resilience and grit and kind of climbed a much steeper mountain than a lot of people who we classically tend to hire.

Well, why wouldn't you want someone who's had that journey as part of your organization? That's someone who's innovative, had to figure out how am I going to do this okay? I don't have any money. I only have my mom -- my mom's not around. I got to take my kid sister to school. I got to pass my exam on Friday. Like how am I going to make everything work? You got to figure that out and then you've got to study, and you got to pass your exams. There's so much stuff that other people didn't have to do. With that grit and resilience and innovation, surely, you want that in your organization. It's a different caliber and a different way of looking at things, but you've got to want some of that, right? Not just in your organization, by the way, at internship level, but all the way through the organization, even around the Board, that's what you want. Someone who sees things differently, has had a different life experience. So that's what you get. And we're already starting to see people saying, this is just great. I'm so pleased that we did the program.

SHEILA BRATHWAITE

That's great. So as someone who is, oftentimes, been the only one in my career. When I was younger, I suffered from imposter symptom. Has anyone else on this panel experienced this? And how can we help our interns?

DAWID KONOTEY-AHULU

Yes. I mean, I definitely -- I'm sure if we're all honest, yes. What is an imposter syndrome? Imposter syndrome is like, I find myself sitting in this seat and I really don't know how I got here. I really don't think that I'm up to it. And I found that, yes, countless times in my career in different places at different times.

Even now, I'm basically on the Prime Minister's Business Council, so I was in a meeting with the Prime Minister here in the U.K., maybe 3 months ago. And we had -- the cabinet was there, 28 business leaders, and me. And at one point, came to me, and I was like, why am I even here, or what am I doing here?

The Prime Minister's like directly opposite and asked me a question, and I seriously was like, I'm not quite sure why I'm in the room. So look, I do think this imposter syndrome thing, we all feel it. Everybody, if you're honest -- very, very few people, I think, honestly say, I always doesn't feel like I deserve to be here. We all feel it. And you have to talk to yourself and tell yourself, well, I'm here for a reason, right? The reason it chose me was because they thought I was good enough for the job. So there's always a voice in your ear that's telling you, you know you're not good enough, right? You know you're not up to it. Always. We've all got it. And we just have to learn to deal with that. So yes, I would say I've definitely had it all my career. And I've learned to deal with it.

SHEILA BRATHWAITE

Yes. I mean from my perspective, it's funny because like I have had that on numerous occasions, especially the role that I'm in now, is I'm a recruiting lead. I've got 5 people that I look after management. And I look at myself and I like they must think like -- I'm a fool. Like how can they not see through me, like that I'm actually in this role in of doing this, and I'm leading a team, and I'm responsible for what we do. And sometimes you think, how did I get here? And how am I so lucky?

And then you have to look at yourself and be like, because you worked hard for it, and you deserve it. You put in the work. You've shown everyone that it's not just about the color of your skin, it's the content of your character as Martin Luther would say. And you've let everyone know that you are worthy. And the fact of the matter is you are what you are because of what you've done. So you need to throw out that self-doubt and worry and realize like people see the good in you, you need to see the good in yourself. So yes, I completely understand it, and I've been there and you just have to fight. Fight and fight.

OLAYINKA FADAHUNSI

I will tell you, it's always really refreshing to hear the people talk about their experiences along the same lines because it's all familiar stuff. I think, Dawid, you're absolutely right to say that most people who are in -- any notable position would have felt that at some point. And if they haven't, it's probably a bit of a sign to do something.

I'll say really quickly that there is a healthy way to look at this, which is that feeling imposter syndrome is part of being humble too. It's part of humility. It's part of knowing that if you're in a role with a lot of responsibility, you don't know everything. You shouldn't think that you know everything. And a little bit of self-doubt hopefully keeps you grounded. But I completely agree with them and Dawid, when you say -- you have to tell yourself that you didn't get here through anything other than hard work, determination and the focus that helps you rise through the ranks.

SHEILA BRATHWAITE

Great responses. And you're absolutely true. Dawid, when -- you mentioned that we were together in the U.K. at an event. And so I've heard you speak about the hosepipe analogy. Can you explain what that is to our panelists and to our guests?

DAWID KONOTEY-AHULU

Sure. So the hosepipe analogy is simply this. I mean, I don't know what the temperature is like over in New York, where you are now. It's like maybe 95, something like that. Is that about right? Well...

SHEILA BRATHWAITE

Yes, little bit hot.

DAWID KONOTEY-AHULU

Well, it's not quite that hot here, but it's hot. And so you might be outside watering your garden and you know how it goes. Well, maybe you don't. Maybe you don't water the garden, I don't know. But imagine that you're watering the garden and you have the hosepipe and the water suddenly stops. So you think to yourself, ah, someone turned the tap off. You go all the way around, you turn to go back, and the tap is on.

So then you're like, okay, that's funny. The tap is on but there's no water. Well, how can that be? And then you realize there's a kink in the hosepipe. So you go, you find the kink, you unkink the kink in the hosepipe, we've all done it, and then you go back, you pick up the hose, and there's still no water and you're like, huh, that's on, unkinked the kink, how -- and then you realize there's multiple kinks kings. And now, you go kink hunting, and you until the unkink all the kinks, and eventually the water flows.

And I think for a journey, the kind of journey we're talking about for some of these young people, life has had kinks in the hosepipe of life, there are these kinks. And it may be true, by the way, if you're a woman, maybe attributes from any minority there are kinks in the hosepipe of life. And what we're trying to do with 10,000 Black Interns is unkink one of those kinks, right? Which is the kink of getting into -- get like the guy I told you about who was like he put out all these applications, he wasn't hearing anything back. There's a kink in the hosepipe he had getting in. And that's what this is doing I think in 10,000 interns and putting them into all these firms. But there's only 1 kink, right? The water still doesn't flow. You've got an unkink all the way along the host pipe.

And I think for a firm of your size, 35,000 people S&P Global, I mean, you taking a really -- you could be taking a fantastic step towards helping to unkink other kinks along that hosepipe, the journey. Because once you're into the firm, then there's getting promoted, and then there's further up, getting to become a managing director or a partner. All the way up through the firm, there are all these kinks. And then becoming -- how do you become, dare I say, a CFO or CEO. There are kinks all the way.

And then there are other kinks the other end as well, by the way, in a -- as a young person, as a child, and being able to go into schools and tell people in schools, "Look, there's a place for you in our firm. You work hard, maybe you're now our 9 or 10 years old, but work hard and 1 day there's a place for you in our firm."

Imagine if your CEO was to do that and go to some school somewhere where the kids never heard of S&P Global, don't know who they are, right, and was just to say, "Look, there's a place for you." That's how you start to unkink all the way along.

So that's kind of the idea of the hosepipe and just unkinking. And strategically, if you want to really deal with this, there's no point just doing that. It's 1 -- it's great. It's 1 kink, but there's like there's 8 or 9 of them that you've got to deal with the whole lot.

SHEILA BRATHWAITE

Ola, Oma, would you like to add any reactions to the hosepipe analogy?

OLAYINKA FADAHUNSI

I have to tell you, I love it. It's my first time hearing it, Dawid, but it absolutely represents what the major challenges here, which is that we work very hard in getting people into the system now. But yes, as you say, there are so many multiple steps for firms of our size or firms throughout the financial services industry and others to really think about if we are looking to change the complexion of many roles.

I've been fortunate in my career because as I said earlier in this webinar, I had great professors in college who were very focused, I think, on looking out for black talent and trying to make spaces for people to get a bit of professional experience before even before graduating. And that's why when Sheila came to me with this idea, I was really sort of geared up about it because I think it's a fantastic way to get people in the door, but it's just 1 of those levels. It's just 1 of those kinks. And I really like that analogy.

OMA LEGER

Yes, I mean I love the analogy. I was gardening yesterday and the hosepipe actually stopped. So when he said, I was like, I know exactly what you mean, and the pressure changed. But no, I think what's great about S&P Global is we -- not only do we -- we talk about D&I a lot, diversity and inclusion. And yes, the diversity is getting students through the door, looking at different backgrounds. But the inclusion piece is key. And I think the kinks that we talk about is that inclusion piece. It's making sure that once you get our people through the door, that they feel like they can bring their authentic selves to work, that there is opportunities for development and growth. That we as an organization and respect them and want the best for them. And I think our organization, our D&I team, they really do a lot to try and ensure that we've got that inclusive environment. And I think that is definitely going to go ways towards looking at the kinks in our organization. But we can always do more, as with any organization. And I think the fact that we are trying and that we are working with initiatives like 10,000 Back Interns, that D&I such a focus for S&P Global, it just really excites me to be part of this company. So yes, I'm really, really happy to be part of this.

DAWID KONOTEY-AHULU

And by the way, I just want to say thank you to you guys on behalf of my fellow trustees for adopting the whole program and getting stuff in, it's incredible. It's just great. So yes, it's a huge deal. And it shows the way, by the way, to other -- to your competitors, your peers in the industry as well. So yes, it's true. So thank you.

SHEILA BRATHWAITE

And thank you, Oma, Ola, Dawid for this most engaging and informative conversation. We're excited about our continued partnership with the 10,000 Black Interns for the summer of 2023 and beyond. Thank you for attending the latest social intelligence webinar. You can find more resources and information about this topic as well as previous webinars in the links below. Thank you again for joining social intelligence.